A conversation on faith (riVeRraT and arachnophilia)

Can I just please ask that if anyone joins thread to try and avoid angry responses about being gay, and to avoid calling anyone a gay basher please? My Pastor had a sermon on false Gods, and what they are these days. Some of the things were, sports, material things, RELIGION, your children, and a few more. I couldn't agree more. Too often people put church before God, and want to build up the church, instead of building up the kingdom. I think that the more we seek him, he drops little tastes of just who he is. When I experience these things, I then can understand why people dropped dead in his presence in the bible. It's like all the bad gets blasted away by his presence, and your body can't handle the shock. Which will bring me to another point. I think I expressed myself incorrectly there. I feel bad, because, I let myself down, not so much that I let God down. After all, he already knows what I am going to do. It's more my desire to be like him. But I am so far from that because of my life, and all the things I've been through. I don't regret it, because that is what brought me to know him, it was my "training".The fustration comes in when I let myself down. I think people in here, no matter what their belief indentify with it. You can see it when people ask questions like, if God exists, then why does ..... Sure, how can we fully understand the light, without knowing the dark? Yes, I do want to change, because I have experienced the joy of being close to the Lord. The more I seek him, the more he shows me. If I devoted myself to a life of sin, which I did before ( I also don't think this is wrong) then I would not get to experience his joy, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit as much.It's very clear how the Holy Spirit convicts me when I am doing things wrong. I am not gay, so I do not know if a gay person would feel this same thing if he/she was seeking the Lord. Would they feel they were wrong?I do know that if I was going to start preaching, or be a Pastor, that I would try to have my life as righteous as possible before opening my mouth. I have already chosen to be transparent about everything I do, and not keep anything from anyone, because I am already in leadership positions, and I hold myself accountable for everything I do. When God says ok, move up, then I will. Yes, I agree with that. That is why I look at my role in the church, and what it is accomplishing for the kingdom.MY church is pretty cool. They call themselves a "sending church" It is in our mission statement that we are to build up leaders and send them out.These verses from Ephsians 4 explain it:

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11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

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By seeking the Lord in our services we can come to know him, how awesome. But these services are not for the church. They are for the outside world, the real kingdom of God. Yep, I agree. But you don't have to give up your life as a missionary. If everyone did that, then there would be no money for sending them out.God showed me to build up my business, and use the sucess he blesses me with to give money to those who need it. So not only Am I part of a charity org, I help finance it as well. But bringing supplys to those in need is a daunting task indeed.I think what is really all about is being obedient to God. That is to include God in all your activities, and ask him his advice on things. I feel as though I recieve answers. Sometimes those answers even go against anything I've been taught, it kind of confirms that it is not just coming from my own head. Yea, what good does it do to lock yourself away in a house on a hill for the rest of your life? You really didn't answer the questions there. I am only asking because I seek your advice, I like your attitude. But your answer is correct, it is not any of my business, it is between them and God, and I am to look at them, or anybody the way God looks at them. I do that, and it helps me greatly to accept people the way they are.But when someone makes it my business, and asks me to say its ok, I don't think I should have to do that. I don't hold them accountable for anything, because they aren't doing it to me directly, but when its starts getting in my face, then it starts becoming something that affects me, not necessaraly in a negative way, but it affects me.When I sin, I am very careful not to let it affect those around me, it's not my desire to do that. Everything we do in this life, every word spoken has an affect on those around us. There is great power in just the spoken word, and then again in our actions. I completely agree. But when it comes to assigning leadership roles, and making laws, doesn't it become a different issue? How do we apply that love and compassion then? Again, I ask, do we encourage sin?I feel like I should not encourage, but I will forgive it, no problem. Some?
Probably more than that.

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well, neither of us seem like the gay-basing type, so i think we're ok.

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brenna has mentioned that she'd like to join in. we're pretty close in ideology (and good friends) so i don't suspect it'd turn into a "jump on riverrat" fest. but i'll leave the decision up to you. (we can always throw her out if she gets obnoxious. )

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Brenna can join us, but not just yet. I would like to continue this one on one for a page or 2. I took awhile to get back to you, because of my busy schedule, and I wanted to take the time to think things through about what you are saying here. Also did some praying. This response alone might take me over an hour to write out, so take some time to read it. I would like this discussion to get deep.I wrote that about gay bashing, because some people in this forum have me labeled as a gay basher just because I am against gay marriage. It's not even that I am against it, its just that I do not feel it is a marriage. It is clearly a different thing, requiring different rules. For example, when to women who have adopted a child together get a divorce, who is the father? California has already awarded a woman fatherhood in a court.

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well, we really should be out there living the life, you know? i guess "building the kingdom" is what i mean, but i'm still not fond of christian cliches. but we should be trying to live christ's teachings, and his love.

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Christian clichés suck. They are almost impossible for someone who doesn't have a relationship with Christ to understand, and they will learn nothing from it. But between us, it is ok. But your right, I have learned that the only way in this world we live in today, or any other world, to spread Christ’s love is by loving those around us, the way Christ loves us. That is the whole battle right there.

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i see church as often in the way of that (isolationist types) and often in the way of other spiritual things. people like to be safe in their faith. but like you said, i'd rather believe in something real than something easy. my personal journey has been very inwardly difficult, full of doubt. though never about the existance god, generally about everything else. it hasn't been easy, and it's still not easy. i've found that the more you look for answers, the more questions you find, and i'm up to some pretty big ones.

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The message this past Sunday was just that. Reading scriptures is almost a waste of time to spread the word these days. We are an experience driven society. People want experience, before they will believe in God. That’s just what I had, an experience. Up until that point, I was uncertain, and living my life the way I always had. I was always a good person, but probably my own worst enemy.I would like to hear some of those big questions.

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i wouldn't say her church was a cult, but sometimes she acted a bit like it was.

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I understand that whole situation. My cousin's best friend just up and left her for some cult like religion. Said she couldn't associate with her anymore. This is a little more extreme than your case, but it was my cousins biggest fear when I started going to church. I assured her that would never happen, and it shouldn't.I believe in what I believe in, strongly. I am not afraid to put it to the test, all the time. If what I believe in is the truth, then the truth will stand its ground. I do not want any of my relationships to change, just because "I found God". Instead they should get better, because I am a more loving person, and can see people spiritually, as well as physically now. Share that thought with your friend.

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it's like the blind leading the blind. i'm bright enough to know that i don't know very much -- if i have a question, it'd be nice if there was someone there for real wisdom in guidance.

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If you have a question, although I am a new Christian also, the church I go, most of the people there have been there for 25 years or more, including the Pastor. I find them just as down to earth as can be, and for the most part have a healthy attitude towards it all, and people who don't believe. They try their best to not be traditional. They don't want it to be like church. I can always pass questions on to them, if you would like to hear another perspective.I learn in a course, called "the art of hearing God 101" that once we have our experience, it is that day that our spirit is born, and starts to grow. (oh BTW, I meant to ask you, do you feel the Holy spirit?) I was always misunderstanding that, and calling myself a born again for so many years, just because I accepted Christ as my savior. But I didn't change any of my ways, so I wasn't really getting it.But once I felt the Holy spirit enter into my life, things did change. Mentally and physically. We can talk about it if you like. It was on that day that I felt something different about myself. I often say, it is either the day I went crazy, or the day I meet up with God.But I knew, from that moment, that I was now going to enter in to a different arena, and a walk that was going to be a little more tougher than my walk before. It is good to have the mentors I have. they have shown their love over and over to me and my family. I hope it never changes.I had called my Pastor the night before he got a hernia operation, and left a message. It wasn't that important. But the second he got home from the surgery, he called me. It was like a few hours after the surgery. I was just blown away by that. He is not even getting paid to be a Pastor, he is a volunteer.

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they had a question and answer session one night when a service ran short. i stumped the pastor. that shouldn't really happen. it's like trying to take a class at school, and having to explain the material to the professor.

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Well I guess it shouldn't happen, but it is hard for everyone to know everything. But he should at least said, let me get back to you with an answer. I believe if you have a relationship with God, and you are called to be a Shepard, then you should be able to ask God, and get some answers.

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it's kind of hard to explain, really. i'm not losing my faith. but i'm starting to think i'm chasing something that isn't there, at least anymore.

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Well where are you looking? Maybe that’s the problem. I got an answer for you about that, and it came to me as a bible verse. Let me go find it.found it, on my first try, wow.Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is”his good, pleasing and perfect will.I never find verses that quick. I use biblegateway.com and put some words in the search engine. Usually I get 100 results. This time it was just one. Check this out. I typed in, do not conform to this world.BibleGateway - Keyword Search: do not conform to this world

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some say that for god to even exist rules out free will

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All depends what you think free will is. Yea we are bond by the laws of the universe, but that doesn't rule out free will.Maybe the people who think that are extremely ignorant to the notion of time, and how things operate, or the environment that God operates in. Just because he knows all, and can see what happens before it happens, doesn't mean that we do not have a choice.Its like putting a record on the record player. When they made the album, there was choices to be made. But then to hear the song, you have to put the album on the phonograph, and let it play.

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but the standard christian mode is just self-destructive. it doesn't actually bring any change for the better, just slingshots someone around like they're a manic-depressive.

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Yes, I can see how some churches and attitudes about God can do that to you. I think that is more man trying to control you with the power of religion. When we know the truth, we are set free. If you do not feel free, then you need to check up.

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anyone who changes overnight is just lying to themselves or others,

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I do not completely agree with that. I experienced a major change, practically over night. But there are many things about myself that will take much longer to change.We can get revelation from God, if we seek him. He will show us things, and help explain why some things happen. This can change us.
But if we are not seeking him, we will not get these answers, we will only be drawn towards the world, not God.

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i don't know. depends really, but i'm going to guess probably not. do we think we're wrong when we eat a ham and cheese sandwich?

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That is OT thinking. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it. What does that mean? I struggle with that one. Right now I think it means that the profits said there would be a change, and Jesus came to show us this change, which by way of the law, and the profits, changed to the law and the way we look at it.It's what comes out of your heart, that is what is important. Jesus did express his thoughts about sexual immortality. I can see through my own addictions to porn ( I was raised in an environment where I was taught it was ok) how it disrupts my life, my attitude towards woman, my life, my family. I do not look at porn anymore, but the desire is still there. It is almost like a drug. My life is much better without it. I am too open minded sometimes, and would have no problem doing all those things I see in magazines, and videos, well not all, but almost. I never had a problem with anybody’s sexual preference, but now I can see damaging effects from certain things. Just where does homosexuality lay in all of that, I don't know yet. I am trying to define it. I don't want to condemn anybody for it, because then I am a hypocrite, but I also do not want to encourage it, because I see the harm it does.But again I say, it is what comes out of your heart. I tend to think that God will judge us based on what we know. That makes his judgment relative to the times. He must understand that if he created time. Staying true to the bible, while remaining relevant to the times, is challenging at best. I think we struggle with that in our church. We want to be in a fore runner spirit, and lead the way. But it is lonely out front sometimes, and easy to make a wrong turn.I say stick to the to most important commandments that Jesus told us, love God with all your mind heart and soul (which by itself is hard if you do not know God) and then love others like you love yourself, which can increase once you understand Gods love for you.

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(orthodox jews can't take pictures on saturdays).

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They also suck the blood off of a circumcised infants penis.
One rabbi here in NY had oral herpes and was transferring the disease to the babies, and even killed one.To me this is a clear indication that we cannot look for God in religion, or man. Also that we cannot judge those other religions as well.We can judge them for ourselves to determine if it is right for us or not. Luckily we live in a place where we can do that.I like to look for God in his creation, in art, in music, and in love.
I also look for God in the bad stuff as well. All of it is hard to explain.

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maybe i'm just impractical. but if they're basically wandering the desert anyways, why not give the water to the people who need it, not the people who have it.

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Yep, that is something I struggle with, and I sure some Pastors struggle with.I guess the only way to really understand it, is to get involved with the leadership, and actually become a leader in the church. Then you can get a close up view of the government of church.Then you can measure the fruit coming from the church and decide if the building is necessary or not. But looking in from the outside can give a distorted view.
If they won't let you get involved, then that raises and eyebrow as well. Our church would let anyone get involved who has their heart in the right place. They encourage it.There was a massacre in Burundi Africa a short time ago. One of our hope houses there experienced a severe blow, in that many of our orphans were brutally murdered. The town was devastated, and they were going to starve to death if they did not receive food immediately. Because we have a church, and a building, we were able to collect money immediately and send it to them, to help them rebuild. If we were all wanderers outside, we wouldn't be able to do that.What about equipping and training the saints? You need a building for that as well. That building costs money.Not everyone is called to give up everything they have and follow Christ into a mission field or something. I think I showed you this verse before:Ephesians
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.The fullness of Christ.

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i'd be careful of that. this was something i dealt with a few years back. i found out that i was basically deluding myself, the hard way. reality can be quite nasty.

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So you think you were deluding yourself?
I am careful, and I do not feel God is asking me to do anything to our of the ordinary, or beyond my capabilities.Usually it is something like, not charging a customer, because they are an old widow, or charge them less because of their financial situation.I find he even guides me in what jobs to take as well.Do you feel like you hear from God at all anymore?

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well, it's really a hard question. i don't think i have an answer: i don't know what god really considers ok, or not. does someone literally come out and ask you "is it ok if i'm gay?"

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i think a good answer, for them, might be that "god loves everyone, no matter who they are or what they do."

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Yes, I agree with that. Of course its ok if they are gay. Its between them and God, not me.But does that mean I should support gay marriage?

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i dunno, i've kind of always been confused by the notion of christian leadership. we're not really one above the other, and we're not really leading anyone anywhere (or at least we shouldn't be). christ is the head, but i don't see a heirarchy below him.

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Just this year my church redesigned its government, and there is no hierarchy anymore. It is flat across the board. But there are roles that people are called to do.

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it's not really up to us to make rules, or (spiritual) laws. i don't think it's encouraging sin, really, to say that it doesn't matter. especially if you're talking about children in the church. kids and young christians screw up, it's what they do. the important thing to note there is that it's not the end of the world when they do. god's not holding it against them.

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Sin is wrong, I think we can all agree on that.We all sin, I think we agree on that.We should all be forgiven, as a matter of fact Jesus said we must forgive to be forgiven, so that’s not a problem.But just like "it's not really up to us to make rules, or (spiritual) laws" then we shouldn't make laws allowing things then either?If a teacher of Sunday school started cursing with another teacher in the class, and they both consented to it, they would probably be told to stop. They wouldn't make a rule allowing it, because, well they consented to it.

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did you know the amish have a policy where they let the teenagers go away for a period of time into the modern world?

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Yes, I know that. I love that rule. But the thing is that the children always come back. That is because they were taught well and can see the world for what it is.That doesn't make the Amish way perfect, but I have great respect for it.I try to do the same things with my kids. I have 5 of them. I bring them place and show them things, and try to explain to them what is going on. This way they are better prepared when they have to face it on their own. I use my own life as an example, and how I feel short of my full potential. I don't have any regrets, but it could have been different.

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now, if you mean LAWS as in "the us government" i think that religion should relaly stay out of that. even jesus was a separationist: give unto ceasar what is ceasars, give unto god what is god's.

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If ceaser says vote on an issue, then you must vote.
If your morals come from the bible, or science, or whatever, what makes one right over the other? There your morals, and you are entitled to them. You can vote the way you want to.Gays in the church(allowing gay leadership) to me if a definite no-no. Can gay people go to church, of course, all sinners go to church. They should be able to go there, and feel loved.Leaders should be people who repent of their sins, and admit there sins, and show a desire to change themselves. A gay leader would not fit that description. I think most gay people will not admit they are sinning. Probably not even admit that there is a God.It's a tuff issue to talk about, and I am sure it raises anger in some people who might read this. I am sorry for that, and I am sorry if I am wrong. But it is how I feel, and I remain transparent in my beliefs.Ok, i spent about 2 hours on this reply.

Well, I guess we can go on about Homosexuality a little more, but I don't want it to consume this thread.

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well, the question is, like the other issues we've discussed, why is it our place to say? it doesn't affect me if two men or two women get married -- but it does affect them negatively if i say they can't. i don't think we should be about creating negative effects, just positive ones.

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Well, when I walk down the street with my children, I don't want to have to say to them, I voted for gay marriage, but I think it is wrong. I would feel like a hypocrite.

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and i think as a society we are really moving past gender roles. so "who's the father?" isn't really a valid question.

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Well, I can say with great authority that you are wrong about that.I have a child with another person before my current wife now. She did not wish to be with me for whatever reasons. We were only engaged. She did not, and still does not wish for me to really have a relationship with my child, and makes it just as difficult as possible, even though I hold up my end and pay support. As a matter of fact, I had to take her to court to pay the support, so I could then get my visitation rights. To make a long story short, she made things as ugly as possible, and the courts have stuck by her side, and have not help my child know who her real father is.As a Christian I have to forgive her, but it is difficult when the hurt she is imposing on me, and the hurt the courts have imposed on me continue daily. Just as soon as I forgive, I have to forgive again.So there is gender roles.No matter what you do, the mother is the only one with breasts to nurse her baby. That is the root of it, if we forget about all this technology.Are we going to let technology dictate how are morals are, or are we going to let how God created us (or the way we evolved) dictate what our morals are?If there is a bunch of men on a deserted island, and no women, they will not be able to reproduce no matter how hard they try. So none of them can ever be a "mother". That’s just the way it is, and you cannot change it.If technology changes that, then we are relying on technology too much IMO, and I find it morally wrong, and just wrong in general. All of this technology could be gone in an instant, then were would we be?

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why should a christian feel in the wrong for one abomination, but not another?

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If we are going to follow Jesus by loving others, then we should take into account everything else he said and did. He was pretty specific about certain things, and sexual immorality was one of them.1 Corthians 5
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people” 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."I think its pretty clear there the difference between sexual immorality and all other sins.Its telling us we can associate with all people of the world, except sexual immoral people, and that we should judge those people inside the church, but not outside.AS far as all other sins are concerned though, he says later to actually become like them so that you can spread the gospel, but not to become sexually immoral.1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.Your body is a temple arachnophilia. This is describing the effects and differences of sexually sinning, and then all other sins.1 Corinthians 10
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God” 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.I know he goes on to say other things about a woman covering her head and all that, but that stuff is minor compared to sexual immorality. I even find beauty in it. Like the way the Amish are, and the way the Hasidic Jews are. Although I would not be able to live my life that way now, because of who I am and my upbringing, I have great respect for it.

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it's not something that's harmful to other people, and it's not something that affects us, so i think they should have the right.

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I disagree with that one too. It does affect us, and our children when it becomes public. It also can affect those around you. There are many parents who do not understand why there child became gay, and it affects them, and their relationship with them. Of course this is a whole other issue, and I am not saying it is right or wrong, but just shows that it does affect others.Regardless of all that, it is not the reason why I am against it.

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but proper behaviour in front of children is a little different.

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That’s my point. We are determining what is proper or not. When little Johnny finds out his Sunday school teacher was gay, and then reads the bible, there will be a conflict.

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because it's not so much "vote ofor your morality" but voting in a way that you think is right.

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Well that’s my point, I don't really think it is right.
For myself I do not understand the desire to be gay. I can understand how it comes about, as I was approached at a very young age by my gay friends, and they tried to push there ways on me. Fortunately I was not interested in sex at all yet, and was scared out of my mind. But there I was not having been taught anything about sex, and all the friends at this one summer place I went to where having gay relations. At that point I did not think gay sex was wrong, but I thought all sex was wrong because I was so young.Then after that, I was almost molested by my swim coach, then another guy when I was 16 tried to "seduce" me, but by then I knew better. Funny thing was he was Mr. Georgia body building champ, and had a wife and kids.So I grew up around a lot of "gayness", especially living in NYC. It was a part of life, but at no point did I ever think it was right. Keep in mind that I was not religious during those times.I am still looking for an excuse to think it is ok, I have started threads on it, and always talk about it with my gay friends, and family.Even after all that, I do not have a problem if someone chooses to be gay. They can live their life the way they want, and have the freedom to do what they want.But freedom to do what they want, does not make the union between to same sex partners a marriage. There are clearly defining differences. Just look at the divorce rate in this country, compared to the separation of gay couples. Clearly "straight" marriage is more challenging than "gay" marriage.Above all else, the only way to make a baby, is to combine a male sperm, with a female egg. This is an indication to me of how things are supposed to be to maintain our race of humans.Unless you want to start including technology in our moral decisions. This already being done right here in these forums, and people won't even admit it. If we start basing our moral beliefs on technology, we will doom ourselves. Technology is awesome, and we should continue to use it, but if goes beyond "what is" then it raises an eyebrow, and we have to start to question just exactly what is right or wrong.Yes I do realize that even "straight couples" cannot conceive, and that technology can help them, but whos fault is that? There are stories in the bible about woman who could not conceive, but then God tells them they can, and they do. This has happened to many of my friends also. They try for years to have a baby, and the doctors say no way, but then God says yes way, and there is a child.But no matter how many times Johnny tries to get Johnny pregnant, it won't happen.I guess when they find the "gay gene" I will maybe start to think different. But to me I do not feel like I am thinking wrong, and I am a very open minded person.Some people may not care about it, and they don't care if their children are gay, if their neighbors are gay, they don't care if the whole world turns gay. But if the whole world turned gay, that would be the last generation then. That is another indication to me that it is not right. But the whole world is not going to turn gay right?And no, I do not care if my neighbors are gay, they make wonderful neighbors. I have always had a gay neighbor as long as I can remember.So in a nut shell those are some of the reasons I do not fell it is right. I never even mentioned the bible, because it was never a factor in me thinking it was right or wrong, but when I became Christian, it sort of confirmed it.Above all what I am trying to express here is that I have been called some pretty bad names in these forums for thinking that way. I do not feel like I deserve to be called those names, or do I want to hurt others with my beliefs, or what I feel is right or wrong. So I am confused. If God says we are to love others like we love ourselves, but then says that sexual immorality is wrong and to run from it, it leaves me in a state of confusion. There are to many unanswered questions. I will have to rely on my gut feeling I guess. I certainly wasn't raised to hate gay people.

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well again, i ask you, do you have any intention of giving up haircuts, ham and cheese sandwiches, or lobster? do you have any desire to change your love of seafood or pork or having short hair? do you admit you are sinning when you go to subway or red lobster or the barber?

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These are not sins according to Jesus.But I think your point is that we sin. Does that make it ok to sin? Just because we do?Jesus said if you commit one sin, you have committed them all. So lusting after a woman in my head is just like committing murder. By our laws, I can lust after that woman, but I cannot commit murder.It's all about where to we draw the line. Some people in this forum think that if the partys involved consent to it, then it is ok. But that still doesn't make it right in the church, or does it make it a marriage.

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i think that might be a bit far. what relation does sexual orientation have to belief in god? i'm sure there's lots of religious gay people. i actually saw a bit of a documentary about hassidic/orthodox gay jews (now THERE'S a guilt complex lol).

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lol, I know there are gay people who believe in God. God has even turned them around and made them straight. I am sure the desires are still there, just like we all have sinful desires.But for the most part what I see are gay people who are angry at God, and the church, because it is not accepted to be gay. I don't blame them for feeling that way. They do not feel like they are doing wrong, and they feel a need to be accepted. I understand that.Lots of people get angry when they are not accepted.

Np, take your time.

I took some time to think about what you say. Well no, but what does that have to do with the law. I am not saying you shouldn't help these people. If he was trying to help them, would he set up a society to encourage and condon that behavior? I am the kind of person when I design things, I make them as simple and full proof as possible. I like to bring my thought process down to the basics, as basic as possible.When I think of how things should be in life, I always revert back to my stranded on a deserted island theory.Why do I do that? Well whether we evolved or we were created, I feel that we evolved to this point because we can reproduce, and raise our young naturally, or we were designed to that. Anything after that becomes an add-on, and not natural. If we disregard this process of evolution, or ID then we are disrespecting what got us here. To over look this and then rely on technology IMO is a mistake.If 2 guys were on an island together, alone, they would not be able to reproduce. He spoke to people that were not given the chance to change. If they accepted him by faith, then they were in, if not, then he sent them on their way. He never said to them, its ok to be a prostitude, or a sinner. He always encouraged them to seek the father, through him. I am saying we should accept them also, and I do. Just because I do not think that to men(or woman) together makes a marraige, does not mean that I do not accept them. Why did he disappear if sinning id ok? At leats he had a conscience and realized he wasn't setting a good example, so he left. Happens all the time. I agree. I thought I expressed that my thoughts on this were not religion driven.Instead I am looking for a way through Jesus to see if I am wrong about it or not. Until they are attracted to you. Ever see how some men go after women? Smae thing happens with men going after men. I have been approached too many times. I must look gay or something, lol that was a joke.Growing up in NYC you are surrounded by it, and I get to witness first hand how this world would be if it was as wide spread as it is here.Clearly it creates an enviroment that I am not comfortable with, but that may be my problem not theirs. But
I also wouldn't wnat my kids to grow up around it.I think I mentioned before about the subtlety of the gradual. The more something is sonsidered ok, the more it will be done. That is an evidence against people being born gay. I don't know about that one. There seems to be a fair number of gay couples that allow their partners to have sex with others. The ratio to straight people doing this, I do not know.Regardless of that stupid fact, I don't know if the divorce rate would climb. I think it is easier for two men to get along, or two woman, than a man and a woman. I've been pretty cloes to many gay relationships in my life, and I see how they functoin compared to a straight one. That is why I think they keep the divorce law up better than straight couples. Yes I know Jesus was against divorce. When seeking the Lord. He says if you can't contain yourself, then you should marry. When I say gay, I mean both woman and men. So do you believe we should all be able to do what ever we want, as long as the involved partys are consenting to it? No, he came to fulfill the law. What do you think that means? Three different levels of involvement.Quantom physics even recongnize that you can effect change just by observing something. Thats my question, WWJD?Just to summarize, I do accept them, I do care for them, I do not call them sinners, even if they are, for I am a sinner also, some of my sins are against the law as well, No I do not think it is a right to call gay marraige, a marraige. IT is not the same period.But I am looking for way, or a reasoning to change that way of thinking. If I am wrong I want to know in my heart, not just some gay liberal calling me a fundie christian yelling at me on a forum calling me a gay basher. That won't change my mind, not in the least.

Hello!Well thanks for hoping the other thread I started. I didn't really start that thread to argue about gay marriage, but it turned into it. I was just trying to point out how stupid I think conservatives can be.But it led me to start seriously thinking about why I think the way I do. But not from a religious stand point, but from a secular one.I went from thinking is was ok, to thinking it wasn't in my life, before I ever got close to the Lord. So I am challenging myself on that.Towards the end of that thread I present many reasons why I feel the way I do, and they are all valid reasons. The discussion we are having in here has turned into why we should think it is ok, or not ok, according to our faith.I will admit that you will have a hard time convinceing me that we should think it's ok according to our faith. I have spent a lot of time considering this, but I am always open to knew arguements about it. Of course we are in a position to judge. That's all we do in life. Anyone who thinks they can go through life wihout judging is fooling himself.The bible says

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Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

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So we are to be fair in our judging. I expressed my flesh desires in that other thread. But I separate my flesh desires from my spirit desires, and what I think God wants from me.If I had a desire to be gay, just like my other sinful desires, I would think is wrong. Therefor I am judging homosexuals the same way I expect to be judged.What I am not doing is condemning them. That is where my acceptance of the act of being gay comes into play.I am against the idea of gay marriage, because to me it is just not a marriage. A marriage is a man and a woman uniting to be one. Doesn't matter what your desires are, doesn't matter what you think love is. Doesn't matter if some gay couples can raise kids better than straight couples, a marriage is a man and a woman.To say straight marriages are worse off to raise kids than gay couples, and that is a reason why we should allow gay marriages is the wrong way to fix things.If straight marriage is broken, then it needs to be fixed. Allowing gays to be married will not fix this.Jesus said:
Matthew 19
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."Man and woman, not man and man.So you say we are not in a position to judge?
That is not correct. If we allow it, then we have judged it. We judged it ok.It is not ok according to our faith, just like all the other sins. That is the way we should think as Christians. We are not of this world but of a Spiritual one led by the truth.What we will not do is condemn it.Does it cause trouble? You bet it does. [quote] Matthew 10
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.[/qs]Jesus didn't come to make peace.

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Matthew 10:
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

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34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw”
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

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However I admire your will to be at peace with everyone, for there is a large part of me that desires the same. But it would seem that no matter how hard we try we cannot make everyone happy, and the bible explains it as well.No matter what you are "on a side", I choose to take sides with Jesus to the best of my ability.If I take sides with ay people, then I feel like I am going against Jesus. Remember if I take sides with gay people, then there will be a whole other group that hates me, because I side with gay people. So matter which side I go to, someone will be upset with me.Why should I even care who I upset, God is the only one who I should acre if I upset. He sees my heart, he knows how I feel about it. I do not mean anyone harm by saying, same sex marriage is not a marriage.People will be offended, but I don't see it as my fault. My heart is clean, my conscience is clear.I am examining deeply if that is correct or not. You can be single if you want to devote more time to the Lord, but the bible says if you cannot ccontain yourself, then you should marry a woman.If a man is on a deserted islan, then the choice is clear, that was a bad analogy. I disagree, I think you would be drawing pistures in the sand. I am an artist as well. I sculpt things from metal, draw, and photograph. I would gladly do all these things on a deserted island, because that is what I was created for. I do it for God, and myself. I do it for the glory of God. If I don't the very rocks around will.Do you believe that God created everything? I understand what you are saying, but Jesus cleary explains what will happen to some people, and what comes from their hearts. as being married. I accept them, not the act of being gay.Just like I would accept a loved one who is a drug addict, but not accept the drugs. Well then you better start explain where we get this wrong and right thing, if it isn't from our morals. You need to explain a code, or systematic way to determine just what is wrong and right.Lay down the law why don't you?Then explain biblically why it is ok. That is not an absolute. There have been studies made that explain how the male has been diluted from who he was designed to be, and makes it easier for him to behave like a woman.Who knows? With all the chemicals in the world today, and birth defects, if people are really born gay, whos to say that it isn't our own fault?I have a few defects of my own. I think thats a lie.Tell me, what does your heart desire most? Pick from the following to be raised from( assume that all will love you and do what is considered right for you):1 Happy loving nurturing biological parents
2 Happy loving nurturing gay parents
3 Single parent
4 adopted parentsPick one. I am being a bit of a wise guy with this answer, but you think being raped is a blessing? I don't agree with that.
Think bout abortion, I guess the fetus has no rights.
Think about suicide.
Think about the fact that it disgusts me to see 2 men kissing. (just being honest)
My tough shit uh?
I don't want to live in a society that thinks that way. I sypathize with that, but the same would hold true for many things that I would want to do in public. This is a conversation on faith. Thats why I got into it in the coffee house.I think my reasons hold some validity. and I appreciate it.

I am not angry, and I do have cause to believe the way I do. That is what I am examining about myself.I do not believe all that translation crap, I feel it is the devil trying to change what always was.Plus, I am not calling anyone names, you are what you eat lol j/k
That makes me a pussy.I mean you are what comes out of your heart. That's the truth.

I also want to qualify something.Just because I believe that being gay is not ok in the eyes of the Lord, based on the bible does not mean 2 things.1 That I am judging it.
2 That our governement should follow this based on what the bible says.

But that is exactly what I have been saying.1 I am not condemning anyone
2 I expect to be judged in the same way, I do not expect laws allowing my favorite sin.
3 If I say its ok, then I still have judged it. If I say it's ok to sin, then do I love that person? no, Have I condemned them? no. You keep bringing up these OT laws, which we do not have to follow anymore.It's not what goes in your mouth, but what comes out of your heart.Healing people on the Sabbath, my Lord?Jesus fulfilled the law, do you understand what that means? I didn't for a long time. Bible explains it clearly. Man and woman become one. Very simple.
Whether they have kids or not. Of course they did. But the world won that battle. Selah. No he wasn't being ironic.
I will tell you what I think he meant.
He meant that if you choose to follow me, then there will have to be things that you change about yourself. (to be with Christ, you must be in Christ) The people around you will not understand this, and then there will be no peace between you. They may even understand it, but not choose it, so there still is no peace.I am not talking about war started by man in Jesus name falsely.He was talking about the difference between true believers, and those who don't.Don't think for a second you can have peace with this world, just because you believe in Jesus.And that statement there is probably my biggest problem with Christianity, and the world. But it is reality. It's not like he just came and died. He said many things while he was here. It's how I interpret them, and what I feel in my heart that brings me to these conclusions.If I am wrong, then God will show me. I keep asking him to. That I like about you, as long as your not close minded. Can you give some verse that back up that statement specifically?I can find way more verses that spell out just the opposite.We can forgive people, but we do not have to accept them. We only have to accept Jesus.Loving someone does not include encouragement to sin. Agreed. So just how do they become one? So if drugs were killing your brother, would you then love drugs as well?
Would you even love the fact that he was doing them?
Or just forgive him, and ask God to show him the way. On the other hand it is not the best idea in the world to create a society that allows you whatever you want. You missed the point, or wait did you?
Your complaining about your mom (it's ok, I complain about mine too) but that is a sign that you desire it not to be that way.Yea, what I got from that is exactly what I expected. You desire a healthy relationship with your mom and dad over anything else on that list. That would be your #1 choice, as would it be mine.If we had a choice. Oh, then I wake up very morning wanting to be blessed with a woman Doesn't she give up that right once she willingly has sex with a male?I am pro choice, choose not to have sex unless you expect to have a kid.Crap, almost perfect spelling, when I checked it. 2 mistakes.

NO, I am saying biblically we shouldn't force it. Even though it is clearly a sin.Sexualy immorality is the one sin that Jesus says to run from.1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did”and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.There's more.

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Jesus changed the law, by doing that he fulfilled it. It was propheiesed that those changes would take place.

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5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

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Know what book that is from? Sounds like a NT verse. But it is Isaiah 53.All that he changed was a fulfillment of the law, so yea, he came not to change the law, but to fulfill it.We don't have to not eat pork anymore, as long as our heart is clean, and it doesn’t make your brother sin. Jesus later defines it again, I think I gave that verse in the other thread. One man, and one woman. Because we are to go and make disciples of the world. People can not become disciples if they are allowed to sin. Sin keeps you from the One who loves you. Bible says have nothing to do with sexual immorality, and to run from it.How can we run from it if it becomes law in our own backyard? Christians have not given up on it. There are many help centers out there that deal with it. There are many Christian consolers who deal with nothing but that.But by and large, it is all a failure, because we can divorce for just about anything, and we do. The system has made a mockery of the institution of marriage, and now gay people want to be part of it.I think every single person on this planet has been made my a sperm, and an egg, and those children wish to be raised by their natural parents, provided they are being raised in a loving manor. It seems we have no respect for that process, the very one that brought us into existence, the gift of life from God. I am not worshiping the national symbol, it's not an idol. No, but that he knew it would happen is a testimony to his existence. Yes, given the nature of man, he would fight over anything, anyway. So I will not blame God or religion over that. They want to label it, but I am sure if they read their books, they could find many more reasons not to fight, over ones to fight. Hypocrites. I agree completely.
and you to me.That is a good seg-way into second gear. I want to start talking about free will, and God's will, and get away from the gay issue.The words have been spoken about it, they are out there. It's ok that we don't agree on things. Sometimes words take a while to have an affect, nothing happens overnight. I don't know if I would describe sin as self-destructive. I am not even sure if there is one way of expressing what sin does to a person.But it isn't good for you usually. It is generally considered a bad thing.but I see it as a necessary thing, as it serves a purpose. I think it is part of the will of the Father, to show us the way, and bring us to Him. Still doesn't mean we should make it a law.Tell you the truth, I almost feel like religiously, I should allow it, and secularly I shouldn't. That is not a sin, anymore. Yes, I understand that. Many alcoholics feel the same way. Correct. The bible does that, not us. Natures viagra The real world is in taking the risk, and relying on devices to keep you safe, or is it just better to not have sex, until your ready.With all the disease, complications, and illegitimate children in the world, I would say the statistics do not lie this time. It is better to wait. I wish I would have, now that I know. No matter what, sex can lead to a baby being born, unless you can't conceive, or you have altered your body. so there is truth in that statement.Post modern reasoning will teach you different, and tell you its a right of your to have sex, but that is only a partial truth.Post modern reasoning can sometimes never reason away nature, into a false sense of what your rights are, yet it keeps trying too.

You are forgiven if, you forgive, if you accept Jesus, amd if you repent of your sins.I do not feel like gay people are sinning against me, so I do not have to forgive them.