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Author Topic:   NEPHILIM mYsteries
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 1 of 134 (306538)
04-25-2006 3:46 PM


Okay, this is a debate for one on one or one on 2 about who or what the Nephilim where.

The Nephilim where the pre-flood Giants of Genesis 6:4. They are said to be the offspring of the "Sons of God" and the "Daughters of Men", and they are said to have somehow re-appeared long after the flood, even being around during the days of Moses (Numbers 13:33)They seem to be quite large, but where they just giants, or was there something more to them?

these are the questions I want to discuss:

1: Who or what where the Nephilim?

2: Who where the "Sons of God"?

and

3: Could a giant race of humans like the Nephilim (aside from possible supernatural qualities)be possible?

I would like to debate with someone who is knowledgeable of the Bible (Arachnophilia, or Riverrat) as well as someone who knows physics and or Biology (Noseyned, maybe Crashfrog, etc) but I only want to adress 1 or 2 people, not a barrage of fellows.

rules for debate:

1. No wisecrack remarks (rebuttal okay, but be nice).
2. Keep it civil.
3. Have fun :)


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AdminNWR, posted 04-25-2006 4:25 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 131 by Origen, posted 12-29-2006 9:55 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 2 of 134 (306545)
04-25-2006 4:15 PM


BTW: If you are just going to flat out say that "The Nephilim are myth and nothing more" and have that as your argument, then dont join the discussion. If you believe that they are and say as such, then that is okay, but at least come up with possibilities as to what they could be or could have been, or at least what they could have been based on. Dont just wright it off as "fiction" or "Mythology" and try to show that the Bible is wrong (a waste of time)

If you just say "Mythology" and leave it as that, then I will not Respond.

Peace

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-25-2006 04:17 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 4 of 134 (306550)
04-25-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminNWR
04-25-2006 4:25 PM


Re: Call for volunteers.
Hey dude :)

My positions would be

1: the Nephilim where a race of human/angel hybrid giants who came about both before and after the flood by angels or other supernatural beings marrying and making love to human women.

2: The "Sons of God" where angels, Cherubim, or some other kind of supernatural being.

3: The idea that a race of "Giant" or "Gigantic" humans coming about not only is possible (Biologically) but has already happened. I'll provide proof and shocking ideas on why this is true. (this will be where Biologists, Zoologists, Paleontologists, Historians, Archeologists, Physicists, and people with a PHD in Useless Information like Myself (LOL) will help out.)

Please join the debate, anybody who would like to attend:D

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-25-2006 04:50 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AdminNWR, posted 04-25-2006 4:25 PM AdminNWR has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 5 of 134 (306869)
04-26-2006 7:49 PM


I guess so far no one wants to tango in this issue. I'll give it a few more days.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 6 of 134 (306870)
04-26-2006 7:50 PM


I wonder if there is a way that I could contact Arachnophilia about it. I would like to have him on it. I'll try something.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 7 of 134 (307707)
04-29-2006 11:51 AM


One last call: Does anybody want to debate about the Nephilim?


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AdminJar, posted 04-29-2006 1:53 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 77 by simple, posted 05-12-2006 3:44 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 9 of 134 (307749)
04-29-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AdminJar
04-29-2006 1:53 PM


Re: Frankly taking the position they aren't just myth
I was just not wanting to get into another one of those "prove the Bible " debates. But i'll allow any to say that the Nephilim are indeed mythological and nothing but. But they have to give some substance as to if Giant humans like the Nephilim could have existed or not (biology, Zoology, Paleontology, archeology, History, Evolutionary masters are welcome. Bible scholars (Jar, Arachnophilia, Faith, RiverRat, Buzsaw) and anybody else who would like to join in on the discusion (Green man, NWR, and my good freind Chirp!)

New rules:

1: who where the Nephilim (Angel/human giant hybrids, Mythology, Abnormally large humans, Neanderthals, etc)

2: who where the sons of God (Angels, Cherubim, Supernatural beings, ancient kings, Mythology, Monsters, Giants, Wizards, etc)

3: could a race of giant humans be possible Biologically, Physically, and evolution wise?


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AdminJar, posted 04-29-2006 1:53 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 10 of 134 (307750)
04-29-2006 3:00 PM


My views:

1: Nephilim where angel/human hybrid giants.

2: the Sons of God where angels.

3: A race of giant humans is not only possible, but has also occured....


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 11 of 134 (307755)
04-29-2006 3:02 PM


BTW: I will debate with 2 individuals. One is okay, but two would be interesting.

Engineers also welcome:)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 12 of 134 (307760)
04-29-2006 3:17 PM


Okay. atfer reading Arach, ill post this as a normal thread.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by AdminJar, posted 04-29-2006 4:24 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 04-29-2006 4:44 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 16 of 134 (307875)
04-30-2006 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by arachnophilia
04-29-2006 4:44 PM


Hey Arach:)

I dont have much time now (going to Church)But I can give a few reasons.

1.(using scripture to understand scripture)Identification with Nephilim as huge in Numbers 13:33 (more properly "descendants of the Nephilim)

2. THe septuagint using the word "Gigantes" to describe the Nephilim (Gigantes was a race of supernatural giants in Greek mythology who made war with the gods)

3. Ancient Jewish and Christian interpretation (Josephus, though, seems to describe them as people of unnatural strength, not unnatural size, kind of like Hercules and Gilgamesh)

4. The description of the anakites (descendants of Nephilim) as "Rephaim" which means "mighty", "Ghost" "Dweller of the underworld" (see Alter) and "Giant". When seeing the deiptions of the anakites as tall and making the Hebrews look like "Grasshoppers" it seems to lean towards the giant meaning (Though Alter seems to combine the supernatural aspects of "Rephaim" with the giant meaning, thus making them legendary creatures, which is kind of neat)

I'll quote Bible verses later, but I'll reinterate my views for discussion:

1. Nephilim where angel/human hybrid giants who lived before and after the flood.

2. The sons of God where angels or another kind of supernatural being.

3. A giant race of humans not only is possible, but has actually occured (we'll discuss Meganthropus (which I believe is no longer taken as a true taxon) Homo Heidelbergensis, Gigantopithecus, Legends of giants,and other various ideas to bring into conversation.)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 04-29-2006 4:44 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 9:08 AM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 04-30-2006 6:38 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 20 of 134 (307941)
04-30-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
04-30-2006 9:27 AM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
Hey Charles Knight :)

I knew about square cude law or scaling. It's amazing that if you where to increase an ant's size to that of a person, it would not only be unable to lift 50 times it's own weight (as normal sized ants do) but it would possibly collapse into goo! I read a site on "stupid movie physics" where it stated that King Kong would not only have nowhere near the "relative" or "Poportional" strength as that of a 400 pound Silverback Gorilla (Which are strong enough to lift two cars) but it also wouldn't move as fast or fight as well as in the movie. Now looking into it Biologically, an ape the size of Kong (24 feet tall at the shoulder when on all fours) is not impossible, but it's bones would have to be much more robust to handle so much weight. If it ran fast like the movie Kong, it would crumple. And it would definitely be much stronger than a Gorilla who was sacled up in poportion due to the squared cube law (This Gorilla would look far more robust in poportion to the Kong of the movie or a normal silverback Gorilla), due to it's evolving slowly over time and developing biological adaptions to such a huge size. It still wouldn't have the relative strength of a 400 pound silverback, but it would be strong enough to rip a normal sized T rex apart (The T rexes in the latest movie are are "V-rex's" a made up dinosaur that was probably in the neighborhood of 20-60 tons)I'll give a link to the websites which has this and other info.

I doubt that there where ever humans or human-like creatures that stood 25 feet tall. Such stories where probably based on ancient fossil finds of mamoth or dinosaur bones, as well as elephant or mamoth fossil skeletons that where reconstructed to resemble humans. The giants i am thinking about are more in the 7-9 foot range, though above ten feet tall is not unlikely (provided that their ancestors in the past had changed over time to be so huge and had biologically adapted to such a huge size. Otherwise he/she wouldn't have been able to function well)

I often do experiments to see how large certain creatures would be if I scaled them up according to the sqared cube law. I've used my dog more often than not.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 9:27 AM CK has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 21 of 134 (307944)
04-30-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by CK
04-30-2006 9:08 AM


Re: A very quick question (physics/biological apporoach)
BTW: I dont know for sure how large the pre-flood Nephilim where, though that has not stopped people from trying. I would give a guess of 7-9 feet tall. If the average people fo that time where around five or even 4 feet tall, the Nephilim would probably have been maybe above 6 feet tall or around it. POssibly Homo Heidelbergensis, though that is pure speculation (I dont think that Heidelbergs and atomically modern humans lived at the same time. Though Heidelbergs are the "giants" of fossil humans, hence they are given the nickname "Goliaths")


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 9:08 AM CK has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 22 of 134 (307950)
04-30-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anglagard
04-30-2006 2:01 PM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
Hey anglagard :)

That is a good point about the gravitational field. If humans are just scaled up, they wouldn't probably survive at such a size. But then again if they had certain biological changes (knuckle walking, Giraffe like neck, something like that) then maybe it could work, though they wouldn't be Human. Or maybe they would be a different typ of hominid if the change isn't too severe, though it wouldn't be of the same species as modern humans.

Now there where bipedal giant dinosaurs that reach well over 10 feet tall (T rex, Giganotosaurus, MApusaurus, Spinosaurus, etc) and some of the Giant sauropod dinosaurs coulde stand on their back legs (Apatosaurus, etc) though none of these animals walked fully erect, especially the sauropods LOL. Now there is a dinosaur called "Therizinosaurus" that was around 20 feet tall abd stood sortof fully erect. And the Giant Ground sloths made it over 10 feet tall. But neither of these animals looked anything like a human LOL. But it is probably biologically/evolutionarily possible that humans could become Giants that would stand over 10 feet tall, possibly 20 feet tall. But they would probably have to look far, far, far different from modern humans to reach 20 feet tall.

BTW: Robert Wadlow (The "Alton Giant") was indeed having trouble with circulation in his legs, though I doubt he couldn't walk, Though he did use a cane once in a while. He died after getting an infection from a cut in his legs, caused by his leg braces. He didn't have any feeling in his legs, so he couldn't feet the braces cutting into him :(


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2006 2:01 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 24 of 134 (308226)
05-01-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
04-30-2006 6:38 PM


The "grasshopper" comment does indeed mean size difference. Grasshoppers where eaten in ancient times, so the Israelite spies where suggesting that they wouldn't make a mouthful for the anakites. We use animals to describe size difference today (you "shrimp", or "he's an Ox")and grasshoppers where used to describe the vast numbers of an army in ancient liturature (See "IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, page 151)

The link to the Gigantes might also be an emphasis on their hybrid nature. The Gigantes where gigantic humans from the head to the waist, and below they where serpent like. They where formed in a "union of Heaven and Earth (Sky god, Earth Goddess). The Nephilim where formed in a union of angels and human women (heaven and Earth)which makes them angel human hybrids.

Now Hercules was shown in sculpture as a big and muscular beared guy, though not a true giant. It is possible that the pre-flood Nephilim where like mighty heroes, though they could also have been gigantic as the post-flood Nephilim where (Often the Anaktes are called "Rephaim" (giants) and said to be very tall, and where often singled out among other tall peoples as quite frightening (Numbers 13:28, 31-33, Deuteronomy 1:28, 2:10-11, 20-21) Even Robert Alter confirms that they where giants, and even translates "anakites" as "Giants" (see pages 746-748 of "The Five Books of Moses: a Translation with Commentary")

Arachnophilia writes:

Lets get into this later

Aww come'on! That's one of the best parts! Even if the Nephilim where not giants, it could still be good for discussion.

BTW: Creationist Pratt. was this an insult?


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 04-30-2006 6:38 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 05-01-2006 1:16 PM LudoRephaim has responded
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 05-01-2006 11:42 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
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