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Author Topic:   Logical fallicies in the bible
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 61 of 106 (53587)
09-02-2003 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by 1Godbeliever
09-02-2003 1:53 PM


1Godbeliever writes:
Why are you so angry at a man you obviously do not know? I mean Christ, not myself as I am a woman.
I am not angry with you or Christ; and you have no grounds to assess my knowledge in this regard. If you disagree with my statements, then offer rebuttal. I could believe that you "obviously" know nothing of Christ, but then that would be premature judgment on my part, wouldn't it?
I am angry with the popular lopsided representation of Christ. In order to characterize him as a man of peace (and ONLY peace) then one must ignore half of what he said and did.
I have stated my believe that The Bible is subjective. Give the same bible quotes to 15 different people and you will get 15 different observations.
That is why there are seminaries. That is why some of us become Bible scholars.
Can't you see it is doing exactly what it was intended to do? Bring thoughtful, intelligent conversation about God.
What brings you to that conclusion? It is "obvious" to me that it brings controversy and sometimes violent confrontation. But there is generally more agreement among scholars than there is among the millions of barely literate clergy.
It excites me that the idea of God can do this.
I don't know what you are saying here. The idea of God has resulted in more hate and dissension than you apparently know.
I'm not hear to preach but rather to share and to listen.
Your previous statement sounds like a testimony to the power of God. You might prefer to call it "witnessing" but that is not a far cry from preaching, in my book. And, asserting that I "obviously" don't know Christ is further evidence that you are fooling yourself on this count.
And about me studying the History of the Christian Church, I am still paying for that education.
Good. Be sure to get at least "15 different" opinions.
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

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phil
Guest


Message 62 of 106 (53591)
09-02-2003 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Yaro
09-02-2003 9:36 PM


Yaro:
". . .why should the child molester who . . . repents on his deathbed go to heaven. Yet some amazon indian. . .who never hurt a fly, go to hell?"
I just answered this, seriously. I'll reiterate. The child molester was not more guilty of sin (spiritually speaking) than the Amazon Indian (is there such a person?). Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Therefore, no matter how much greater one seems than the other on earth, they are both equally guilty of sin in Heaven (this sucks, basically).
Yaro:
"If we can do no right, then what is the point of life? What is the point of this world? Is it some sort of spiritual lottery?"
First off, we can do "right." We do plenty of it, too. We just happen to do "wrong" as well. These "wrongs" lead to death. Romans 6:23a says, "For the wages of sin is death" (spiritual death in this case--eternal separation from God; Hell). The point of life and this world was for us to have a purposeful, interactive relationship with God, but instead we sinned, turning our backs from God. It is not some sort of spiritual lottery. The second half of Romans 6:23 says, "but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This means that if one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he (it's just easier to write he, sorry) will go to Heaven. Also, we are not held accountable for our sins -past, present, and future- because that is why Christ died. Christ paid for our sins, so all we have to do is acknowledge this and accept him. There is no lottery here; it is a personal decision to accept Christ or not (the latter having serious consequences, in my opinion).
Yaro:
"What is the point of this world, if nothing we can do in it can gain us heaven?"
Now there is something we can do to gain Heaven. We can accept Christ. Without him, we would all be doomed.
Yaro:
"Why the pain?"
Pain is a result of our sin.
The Candyland analogy is a little off. It is not just pure luck, as I have explained.
Finally, I would like to say that accepting Christ or not is your personal decision. I do not mean to condemn everyone who hasn't accepted him--that is just plain wrong. As a man (young man?) of Christ, I feel I am called to love others as Christ has loved me. Some people have questions that need to be answered in order for them to do so; others just plain don't believe in God. Whatever the case is, I respect your decision. I just pray that you might one day accept Christ.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Asgara, posted 09-02-2003 10:57 PM You replied

     
phil
Guest


Message 63 of 106 (53592)
09-02-2003 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Yaro
09-02-2003 9:36 PM


Sorry for the TRIPLE post. I had some problems with my computer. If an administrator could delete this post and the next, it would be greatly appreciated.
[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

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phil
Guest


Message 64 of 106 (53593)
09-02-2003 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Yaro
09-02-2003 9:36 PM


sorry.
[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Yaro, posted 09-02-2003 10:54 PM You replied

     
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 65 of 106 (53595)
09-02-2003 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by phil
09-02-2003 10:44 PM


Perhapse I wasn't clear eughe what I ment by spirituall lottery:
Not everyone has or will hear christ, and not everyone belives in the same God.
There are plenty of people with different religions who have never heard of Christ, and they belive passionetly in their own Gods. These people didn't ask for that possition, they were born in cultures that promoted their belifes.
Likewise all the native americans who died before columbus, countless african tribes, etc. All people who have never heard the Christ myth. So it is a lottery, either your born in the right place or not. Either you hear the story and belive it or you don't.
Why did God set us up? If the pourpose of this world is for me to accept some tall tale, that I may never hear, or suffer eternal damnation, then I would rather that I never be born.
Why the heck do christians keep having babies? You should stop, that way no more will risk hell.
I don't understand why God didn't just make a new world. I mean, if you were baking an Apple pie, and you realized that you put rotten apples in it by accident, why the heck try and salvage the pie? Make a new one, that way God would have saved us all a bunch of trouble

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by phil, posted 09-02-2003 10:44 PM phil has replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 66 of 106 (53596)
09-02-2003 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by phil
09-02-2003 10:43 PM


Hi Phil,
Also, we are not held accountable for our sins -past, present, and future-
This isn't quite what I had been taught in the past...
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I was taught that "everyone" would be judged on their actions in this life.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by phil, posted 09-02-2003 10:43 PM phil has replied

Replies to this message:
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phil
Guest


Message 67 of 106 (53600)
09-02-2003 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Yaro
09-02-2003 10:54 PM


That is a very good question. I believe (and there is Scripture to back me up, I just don't know it off hand, so take this as just my opinion if you'd like) that God knows our hearts. Many people claim to be "Christians" but, in their hearts, never really are. Conversely, many people that lived never heard of Christ but may gain eternal life in Heaven. How is this so? Like I said, God knows our hearts and, therefore, knows what we would have decided had we heard of Christ. I believe the same goes with "pre-Columbus" Native Americans, "countless African tribes," the mentally-handicapped, and children that were unborn or died in infancy.
Finally, concerning your last paragraph: we do not know, to be completely honest, whether God created a "new world" or not. I strongly believe that he didn't, but I can't seem to think of anywhere in the Bible that says we are God's sole creation (in terms of life and humanity). I do know, though, that God did decide to "right" our world. He sent his son to die for our sins so that we may once again have an opportunity for eternal life. He loved us too much to just destroy us (completely) and start anew. Yes, there is still pain, disease, hunger, etc. here on earth, but we are free of all these consequences of sin in Heaven, if we choose to go there.
By the way, this is my last post of the night, so if you reply, I will get back to you tomorrow at some time. Thanks.

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phil
Guest


Message 68 of 106 (53604)
09-02-2003 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Asgara
09-02-2003 10:57 PM


Okay, one last post (EDIT: addressed to Asgara):
Maybe I wasn't clear by saying we are not held accountable for our sins. I mean that Christ died for all our sins, and so all you have to do to enter Heaven is accept Christ (by accept I mean believe that he is Lord and Savior). No animal sacrifices, no indulgences, etc.
Finally, "everyone" is judged by their ACTION in life. This action is accepting Christ or not. The Bible speaks of things such as "crowns" (symbolic?-I do not know) that we receive once we are in Heaven according to how well we shared the gospel (or so I have heard). The "crowns" are of little significance, though, compared to the greatness of Heaven (basically, we will just throw them off). Also, people that do not accept Christ are still judged upon "the things done in his body." These things are essentially what are causing them to go to Hell. Romans 6:23a again says, "for the wages of sin is death."
[This message has been edited by phil, 09-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 71 by doctrbill, posted 09-03-2003 11:27 AM You replied

     
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 69 of 106 (53606)
09-02-2003 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by phil
09-02-2003 11:28 PM


Why does sin need to be atoned for?
Why did God, pre-christ, require a calf?
What logic is there behind killing an animal to apease a diety?
That's one question.
But more on the current topic:
If God knows what is in our hearts, and judges us on our actions, then it is irelivant weather or not we belive in christ. For certainly God, can see in an athiests heart and understand what led him to belive as he does, and forgive him. Likewise he can see the heart of a Hindu, etc.
A true loving God, would understand mans confusion, and cut him slack were necissary.
Have you ever seen a small child do something compleatly wrong, with all the good intentions? Say, he tried to cook you some cookies, but because he is an inocent kinda messed up the recipy and burnt them a bit. You don't rebuke him for being ignrant, you don't cast him from your home and stop loving him, why does God do this to us?
If I am a lowly, fallible human, who for whatever reason cannot accept the Christ story, wouldn't God understand my resoning? Wouldent he just say "well, he's just human, and I can see were he got the wrong idea. But hey, he was a good guy, and he knows better now so..."
Get my drift?
So what is the point of Christ at all?
Why must there be blood sacriffice for sin? As mark42 says sometimes couldent God had "just had a beer and a pizza" for our sins

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 Message 68 by phil, posted 09-02-2003 11:28 PM phil has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 09-03-2003 4:23 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 70 of 106 (53638)
09-03-2003 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Yaro
09-02-2003 11:36 PM


Hi Yaro,
This part of your post is very interesting:
A true loving God, would understand mans confusion
The idea of an all loving God had been used to actually disprove that such an entity could exist.
God is perfect, everything about him is perfect or he wouldnt be God. But if God is all loving and all just then this is a contradiction, this entity cannot exist.
If God is all-loving then he would save everyone, regardless of their actions. If he is all-just then we all get exactly what we deserve.
A being with these attributes cannot exist because no matter how bad a life you led, if God really loved you he wouldn't send you to hell. Even on a human level, how many people have had a child who has been a terrible burden to them. Perhaps a drug addict who has lied, stolen from their family, and broken their mother's heart a million times, yet, in most cases, the mother keeps taking them back, the mother forgives them everytime. It doesn't matter how nasty a child has been, I cannot imagine that a mother would want that child to be tormented for eternity in Hell. A mother's love is far superior to God's love.
When applied to Christian theology, where God condemns His children to Hell for something as stupid as not believing in a man called Jesus, or because a woman ate a fruit 6000 years ago that she wasn't meant to, then one of the foundations of Chrsitan thought becomes exceedingly embarrassing.
Brian.

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 71 of 106 (53683)
09-03-2003 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by phil
09-02-2003 11:28 PM


phil writes:
... "crowns" (symbolic?-I do not know) that we receive once we are in Heaven ... are of little significance, though, compared to the greatness of Heaven (basically, we will just throw them off).
God gives you a crown and you just throw it off? What about the other gifts of God? You just "throw them off" as well?
Could you have a more cavalier theology?
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

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 Message 68 by phil, posted 09-02-2003 11:28 PM phil has replied

Replies to this message:
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phil
Guest


Message 72 of 106 (53750)
09-03-2003 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by doctrbill
09-03-2003 11:27 AM


Yaro and Brian:
Sorry, I will reply to you a bit later, I just don't have enough time right now.
Doctrbill:
First off, a little Scripture to support the whole crown thing (I know it was a little unclear in my first post): Revelation 4:4--"Surrounding the throe were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads." Continuing on with verse 10--"the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne. . .(NIV, other translations say throw off, I believe, I just don't have them with me now)." So there are crowns. Maybe only the "twenty-four elders" get them, but I am not sure.
Also, about the "throwing off" these gifts of God and other gifts of God: Philippians 3:8 says, "What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish that I main gain Christ (into verse 9) and be found in him. . ." So these "gifts of God" are nothing compared to the Gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, according to Romans 6:23.

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beckham7
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 106 (53779)
09-03-2003 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by doctrbill
09-01-2003 11:22 PM


Hmmm... looking at the text in context usually helps one understand.
In all of these cases its called JUSTICE not evil.
Yes, God is capable of causing both good and bad things to happen to people. He is capable of anything and everything. Although He is a God of mercy, He is also a God of power and justice. Just because He loves us does not mean He won't discipline us. It is not evil if we are deserving. Just because a father spanks his child does not mean he doesn't love Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by doctrbill, posted 09-01-2003 11:22 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 76 by doctrbill, posted 09-03-2003 10:16 PM beckham7 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6497 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 74 of 106 (53780)
09-03-2003 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by beckham7
09-03-2003 9:27 PM


But Hell is hardly discipline. A father spanks his kid to better him, you can never be betterd by hell.
Parent's will love a child no matter how much a bad seed he is, they will do all in their power to make him "better", but sometimes even that dosn't work. But guess what, they don't give up, and they never hate him.
God makes it clear here and there that he hates those in Hell, and there is no chance of redeeming yourself in hell. So what the heck is the point of that? That's not punishment, that's uncaring cruelty on a very human scale (death penalty anyone?).
Also, this dosn't adress the major question. Why earth at all?
If God messed up this world, why didn't he just give up and start over? He could have just hit 'undo' and started over and got the perfect world he wanted. Why is he wasting all our time with this redemption BS?
If he wanted us perfect so bad, he should have never let us get outta controll in the first place. Dosn't the fact that we went outta controll at all contradict God's omnipotence?
And finally, woulden't it be a good idea to stop having babies? I mean, with out humans, no more hell right?

This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 75 of 106 (53781)
09-03-2003 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by phil
09-03-2003 7:04 PM


Thanks for the clarification of your statement. Had me going there! For more on the crown metaphor see: 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; and others. A good concordance is marvelous technology.
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

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