Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 7/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why does Jesus misquote the Old Testament so often?
Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 85 (67714)
11-19-2003 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by zephyr
11-19-2003 9:48 AM


Are you now arguing divine inspiration is implied by errors in the text?
Textual accuracy is implied by 'apparent' contradictions in script. Where questionable script arised, it was not altered to make a more believable story.
Seems premature and rather arrogant to imply that the problem is his, when you know nearly nothing of him personally. It is also damning to your argument that you belittle his understanding instead of providing a factual answer.
Mat 13 vs 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
I've shown RoR the answers as best I could.
If he chooses to accept them, great, if not, there is little further I can do. The idiom thus applies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by zephyr, posted 11-19-2003 9:48 AM zephyr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 11-19-2003 5:09 PM Zealot has not replied
 Message 29 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 9:30 PM Zealot has not replied
 Message 30 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 9:33 PM Zealot has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 17 of 85 (67717)
11-19-2003 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
11-18-2003 5:34 PM


quote:
He did'nt say he was quoting scripture. He alluded to information which was written in scripture. That's a no brainer for serious students of the Bible, but when you're out to do nothing but find fault, you nitpick.
"Thus it is written"? "As the scripture has said"? If I said "As the CRC has said, it is safe to drink hydrochloric acid", would that be a responsible - or accurate - statement on my part?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2003 5:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 85 (67782)
11-19-2003 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Zealot
11-19-2003 11:35 AM


Whoa!
quote:
Textual accuracy is implied by 'apparent' contradictions in script. Where questionable script arised, it was not altered to make a more believable story.
So, are you saying that the existence of errors proves that there are no errors? Wow!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Zealot, posted 11-19-2003 11:35 AM Zealot has not replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 85 (67794)
11-19-2003 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by The Revenge of Reason
11-19-2003 8:04 AM


Have you read the book "the case for Christ"? Lee Stroble was a court reporter for, I believe, the Washington Post. His wife became a Christian and he was soo angry he set out to disprove the bible and Christianity. He use the same techniques e used in the courtroom to check out all these questions. He had many of the same issues with the bible. What about the errors, why should the bible be taken literally, are their sources outside the bible that back up any of these stories, etc. It is a really fascinating book, pretty easy to read, and has interviews and citations that you can follow up on. If you are really serious about wanting these questions answered then I would get that book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by The Revenge of Reason, posted 11-19-2003 8:04 AM The Revenge of Reason has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Asgara, posted 11-19-2003 6:57 PM keith63 has replied
 Message 21 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 7:48 PM keith63 has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 20 of 85 (67796)
11-19-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by keith63
11-19-2003 6:45 PM


I read that book and the biggest problem with Lee Strobel's reporting (i.e. book) is no reputable journalist truly looking for the truth would only interview one side of the issue. He accepts claims against others (such as the Jesus Seminar) without question or investigation.
Check out a review of the book:
The Rest of the Story » Internet Infidels
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 6:45 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 7:50 PM Asgara has replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 21 of 85 (67807)
11-19-2003 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by keith63
11-19-2003 6:45 PM


Have you read the book "the case for Christ"? ... If you are really serious about wanting these questions answered then I would get that book.
I read it, then tossed it. It is, in my opinion, little more that a casserole of innuendo and defective argument.
But, of course, you feel differently. So why not simply put forward what you find to be Mr. Strobel's most probative argument, and we'll see where it leads? Parenthetically, I suggest you scan Lowder's crituque before doing so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 6:45 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 7:52 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 85 (67808)
11-19-2003 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Asgara
11-19-2003 6:57 PM


no reputable journalist truly looking for the truth would only interview one side of the issue.
Good point but I still don't think it takes away from the book. I guess he thought that he represented the other side and, I'm sure like you, probably knew all the other research that was out there. For example if I were doing a book on athiesm I would not feel a great need to interview Christians because I'm already familiar with their side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Asgara, posted 11-19-2003 6:57 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Asgara, posted 11-19-2003 7:55 PM keith63 has not replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 85 (67809)
11-19-2003 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ConsequentAtheist
11-19-2003 7:48 PM


Read it, tossed it!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 7:48 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 7:56 PM keith63 has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 24 of 85 (67811)
11-19-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by keith63
11-19-2003 7:50 PM


book on athiesm I would not feel a great need to interview Christians because I'm already familiar with their side.
But this was suppose to be a look at his journey to find "the truth". If I was looking to find the truth about an issue, you can bet that I would look at all sides.
He is preaching to the choir.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 7:50 PM keith63 has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 25 of 85 (67812)
11-19-2003 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by keith63
11-19-2003 7:52 PM


Fair enough. Which of Strobel's arguments did you find most compelling?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 7:52 PM keith63 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 8:00 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied
 Message 28 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 9:25 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 85 (67815)
11-19-2003 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist
11-19-2003 7:56 PM


Don't have the book in front of me tonight. I'm at work teaching a class. I'll dig it up and let you know tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 7:56 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 9:03 PM keith63 has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 27 of 85 (67835)
11-19-2003 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by keith63
11-19-2003 8:00 PM


I look forward to it. Perhaps you would like to present/defend it in its own thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by keith63, posted 11-19-2003 8:00 PM keith63 has not replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 85 (67839)
11-19-2003 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist
11-19-2003 7:56 PM


I was just kidding about the tossed it part.
I thought the best argument for me was the change in the disciples. While it is true that Muslims, Jews, Christians, and certainly the followers of David Koresh (however you spell his name) are and have been ready to die for their beliefs, they are still beliefs, however true they may feel about them. Only the apostles were in a position to know for sure if Jesus was resurrected and appeared to them. For anyone else it must be taken on faith. And these apostles demonstrated all to eagerly that they would flee and run away, and in the case of Peter, deny Jesus to save their own life. They could have very easily picked up and started their lives over and probably live very comfortable lives. But instead of that they chose to set out, with no or little money, and expose themselves to ridicule, loneliness, open hostility, and in 11 of the 12 apostles even death.
Now if you were a follower of someone and that someone turned out to be a fraud, and you knew it. What on earth would you gain by going around the country, starving, having people ridicule you, hitting you, putting you in prison, and finally standing you up against a wall and threatening to kill you with stones. No one in their sane mind would put themselves through that. These guys were wimps who became warriors. Something happened to those guys or they never would have done that.
By the way I read Lowder's crituque and think he made some valid points but I thought his critique on this point was weak.
Therefore, the fact that the disciples were willing to die for their beliefs would increase the probability of the Resurrection only if the disciples were in a position to "know for sure" (p. 334) if the Resurrection really happened. Yet the earliest sources on the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15, Mark) do not even imply that Jesus' corpse was revivified; therefore, there is no reason to believe that the disciples were in a position to "know for sure" if Jesus' corpse came back to life!
I also think the argument about Paul is a strong one. Here is a guy who devoted his whole life, up to that point, persecuting and killing Christians. To then become one is an incredible transformation.
I think Lowders argument on this is also pretty weak.
The story of Paul's conversion is hardly even hinted at in any of the writings attributed to him. And when you read about it in the book of Acts, this looks like an awful lot like two stories widely known at the tomb: the conversion of the persecutor Pentheus--persecutor of the Dionysian religion that's told in Euripides' play, The Bacchae--and the conversion against his will of Heliodorus, the agent of Antiogas Epiphanes, 2 Maccabees. [These are] both texts that the author of Acts would certainly have known as an educated person. His stories of Paul being converted don't sound much like Paul's epistles but do sound like this.[32]
This is like saying that if I have read a love story I can’t have and describe a love story of my own. I know you will say that is a weak analogy but I think it is fitting and equally as ridiculous as Lowder’s argument. Here again was someone who was a killer of Christians, who later was martyred for his belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 7:56 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-19-2003 10:06 PM keith63 has not replied
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 11-20-2003 3:59 AM keith63 has replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 85 (67841)
11-19-2003 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Zealot
11-19-2003 11:35 AM


Mat 13 vs 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Amen!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Zealot, posted 11-19-2003 11:35 AM Zealot has not replied

keith63
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 85 (67842)
11-19-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Zealot
11-19-2003 11:35 AM


As my wife always says "more room in heaven for us." But as the Bible says I still love them and want them all to see the light eventually. I just wonder what makes them all so bitter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Zealot, posted 11-19-2003 11:35 AM Zealot has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024