"THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO

Since I've been on an excavation on a stone rock formation
See: ( Willkommen an der ersten deutschen Universitt des 21. Jahrhunderts ) I can claim to have some (if limited) personnal experience.If there was a wheel it was undoubtly one without much metal. Bronze was the most used metal and they didn't normally use it on chariots, They did use it in burial practices like (Etruscan Art ) and more excist, but chariots were normally simpel wooden vehicles, sometimes stronghtened with some metal nail(s).
The disadvantage metal on the outside is that it will fall of rather quickly and is actually totally useless as means of defence.In water conditions, the only way for wood to remain preserved, is either in very cold water (like the Wasa conditions, where it's too bloody cold for certain worms to live) or under sand. If the wheel survived in the Red Sea, it must have been under the sand. How coral got on it, is a mystery if it is a wooden wheel, unless it belonged to the Pharaoh himslef.More unfortunate is the fact that wooden things normally float. We only find ancient ships in the mediterranean (with wood remains) when the cargo pressed it down into the sand. No wooden warships have ever been found even though we know where to look, because after they sink, the wood will decay and rot or float upward. I can't find any description of the Red sea bottom structure where the supposed wheel was found, If it was coral/stone, than the wheel would have rotted and washed away by currents. If it was sand, then a considerable force was needed to get it under the sand or some very lucky currents that kept it in place long enough to preserve anything, but as soon as coral would get a foothold, the wood would be exposed to air and rot quite quick. Coral will not grow on wood, neither on a thin lair of bronze (or other metal).In conclusion: Bronze in huge quantities could hold it down, but that would mean losing the actual function of the wheel. It is unlikely that any chariot (accept the pharaoh/general/high priest) had metal decoration on the wheels.As a last note. Chariots where seldomly used in battle situations. They slow down the horses and could effectively only be used on clay ground. In battle situations, they were used to transport higher ranked personel near the battle (and away if need be) and for missile assaults (see Homer, Iliad). For a situation where you need pursuit speed, you definitely do not use chariots which get easily stuck and also in those days broke rather easily.Lucy

The link I provided did only mention bronze wheels as one of the few sources we have for burials with chariots. There have been no chariots found outside ones found in burials (apart from this alleged 14th BC one where we're talking about).Extracarricular logo's are a modern invention. Troops all dressed up the same way is a Napoleontic invention. The Greeks (a part of history we know something about) might have had markings on their shields or homogenous helmets. But apart from vase drawings which can not be used as evidence, because they had to promote homogenity to make it logical, we have no prove.
Dressing up wheels is expensive, difficult and not strengthening the chariot structure. It's pointless to do it (although some think it would have avoided squeeking).After freshening up, I will admitt that the Egyptians were the last to use chariots in any great number as a machine of war, probably even reaching considerable speed but still mainly used to move archers in battle positions (using the chariot solely for hunting and transportation seems to be a later occurence), but I agree that the fact that they had them admitts that they could use them to pursuit the jews.Some pictures:
One of the alleged wheels.

Typical Egyptian wheels of their era.


Rebuild chariot from Tut's grave
Well, we know that Egytpian chariots (from Tut's tomb and grave paintings) were lightweight and all pictures (and chariots found so far) show 6 spokes connecting the rim to the axle. This is the standard Egyptian version, so the above picture is not Egytpian. It looks like a wheel, admitted, but definitely not Egytptian, because it has four spokes and is more massive that the Egywpian ones. (Paulk's link mentions 4 spokes, but doesn't show one, neither can I find one)About the coralWell. I will not look up and give you a website for each statement I make here, so simply follow along:
1- Stone & Soft coral need currents (for food) and something hard to cling on to.
2- Stony & soft coral need sunlight.
3- What isn't buried under the sand and has coral on it, is exposed to sunlight.
4- Wood will rot when exposed to water (unless certain conditions, like the Wasa ship near Stockholm, or prepared wood for modern buildings,,,, I presume)
5- Soft coral might use wood. It is seen on sunk WWII materials, but they're quickly rotting away.I will agree, that when it's soft coral it might use exposed wood to cling on to, but the picture from worldnetdaily doesn't show soft coral in my view
When soft coral has a chance to get a grip on wood, it will definitely rot away. Hard coral will not get a foothold on wood. Since coral which gets no sunlight will not live, I can only assume that it has a hold on something else than 3500 years old wood. If this is the case, someone must explain to me, why it hasn't rotted yet.Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

As a last matter of opinion.
I prefer archaeological excavations to have an open mind when they go to/prepare a dig. People who go to an excavation site with the assumption to find something, and especially those who seem to be funded well, go to huge extremes to get a result.
In my opinion, this excavation had to have a different start and in the parts I've seen (I'm not going to buy it) I've seen no arhcaeological equipment, other than diving apparatus and a metal detector. Maybe there were vacuum pomps and measuring equipment, but I didn't see it in the clips provided. Just going under with metal detectors is amateur archaeology at best.Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Lysimachus:Well, this was a long read.
Unfortunately, I can't find the puclication by Hoffmeier anywhere, so I can't say anything about the dating. I can still say something about the best preserved wheel: This is an assumption based on the fact that there are no finds of similar wheels in Egypt (although these wheel types have been found in Etruria f.i).
Tests have shown, that the light weight variant with 6 spokes small wheels -and I didn't say 4 spokes didn't exist, just that I did not find a picture of it- have proven to be very succesfull. So, I believe chariots were usefull, but the heavier wheels will make several advantages absolete. Furthermore, the examples given here: prove that the basic rim structure remained the same, but the uniquely preserved (ahem) one found is more robust and bigger (in comparison with preserved wheels) and so falls outside of Hoffmeiers category. Only your own assumption that it might be a 18th century chariot build for different purposes is backing this up.I can also attack the claim that these things are actually wheels. People are looking at coral structures like this: and claim it's a chariot wheel with iron in it (How they can spot the difference between 6 or 8 spokes is amazing). Now, I know Egytpians were using iron, but hammered iron was not known in Egypt during Thutmoses IV reign. So it might have been cast, like nails, but this is very unlikely on a chariot now is it.How did coral grow on this wooden structure BtW. It's evidently not been covered with sand, so the wood should have rotted away.About dating the exodus: You mean like Moses writing down his own death
These books can not be automatically attributed to Moses. If you want to defend that case and Moller's one, explain why the city of Rameses is mentioned in Genesis and Exodus (so, as written by Moses), although it is build by Ramses the Great (roundabout) 150 years later.
You know that Thutmoses IV and the city Of Rameses can not be used for the same period.Conclusion:
The only way all this can be checked is by radio-carbon dating of the remaining wood or other known measurement technique. This can be done on the femur as well (what the femur is contributing as evidence, I don't know). But since the (un)fortunate has happened and we have no samples left, it can't be done.LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-23-2004 08:00 AMThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-23-2004 08:01 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

First of all I'm glad to see you use C14 dating as evidence.About Jericho:
H.J. Bruins, and J. van der Plicht. 1996. The Exodus enigma. Nature 382: 213-214. states 1580 BC (with 13 year difference) using C14 dating. Doesn't seem to be corresponding well with your source.
So, there's still some work to be done.About the wheels.
Well. I say again, the wheels found so far are all of the thinner sort. I mean, they have a slim rim which looks as thick as two thumbs. So all you can do is make an assumption. There's nothing wrong with making an assumption, but assumptions don't prove anything. We have only pictures from graves and some buried wheels from tombs. That there were several types during Thutmoses reign might well be true. These wheels we see on pictures seem to present slim rims and slim spokes. The wheels we have from tombs also have slim rims and spokes.
This golden wheel has no slim rim and spokes. It's completely against the evidence we yet have.
Show me an Egyptian wheel (from the appropriate time of course) which looks like this wheel.Strange looking corals can be made by any number of objects. As soon as a wheel is found under the sand which totally looks like a wheel, then the case will be better, but pictures like these; Don't prove anything. Take the picture from Mahoney Media – Page not found f.i (go to check out the production photos). You see a diver standing on the sandy floor with many coral shapes in the background. You're bound to find some which look like what you're looking for.Let's c14 date something or prove that one of these coral shapes is a chariot wheel, without a nice drawing of a wheel in the picture. An explanation of what the iron is doing in the wheel would also be interesting.the city of Rameses
Well, you don't make it easy on yourself there.
A statement: But then you prove that it might be older because: So, we shouldn't be looking for Pi-Rameses, but it might be older because Qantir (an older site) has five ostraca with Pi-Rameses written on them. This is very bad reasoning.Actually, scholars are still undetermined about the actual location, so let's face it. It's not found yet.
So, the problem as presented still stands. Davis suggestion isn't helping you either. He does provide a date, but uses it to disprove a late date exodus. He's not disproving any statement about the fact that Rameses and Pi-thom are of a later date.Actually, Pi-thom is discovered and it was built under Ramses II. The site of Pi-thom, as identified by Naville in 1883, is to the east of the Wady Tumilat, south-west of Ismailia. This has been generally accepted and several web sites conclude that it was build by Ramses II(Christianswers or JewishEncyclopedia and several others.)
The oldest name found on this site is of Ramses II.The argument against modernisation of an obsolete place name is not to the point, because we don't know if it got another name later on and we're not going to suggest that ancient biblical scholars did this all the time when we can only confirm it twice.LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-24-2004 11:18 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Look at this beautifull picture of Assyrian soldiers ferrying a chariot across a river on a coracle. Looks like they might have lost a couple and Moller found them LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-26-2004 09:48 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

I was joking.
But still, I haven't seen ten in the pictures (just some funny coral shapes). So far I've only seen one wheel and that one is not Egyptian (if it isn't a fake).Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

I will at least answer some dubious statements.First of all, You shouldn't be quoting Herodotus to confirm your exodus assumptions. Every serious ancient historian takes his claims to be totally exagerated. He probably wanted to make the Greek defence sound like the greatest feat ever accomplished.
But once you start to think about supplies and other military coniderations then it's simple to see that the statement is totally wrong. Plutarchus statement is most certainly an exaggeration. It is most probable that Alexander was outnumbered, but not 20 to 1. Most probably 4 or 8 to 1.And, about your usage of iron on chariots:
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htmMost scholars agree that:
c.1400-1350 BC Forged (tempered) Iron comes into use by the Hittites.So, there could not have been rust coming from Egytpian Chariots, sunk 1446 BC. Only Thutmoses III and Ramses III mention (in documents) iron once, and both accounts concern gifts. There is no (or worthless amount of) iron production until the end of the 7th century. So, show me your sources, because these are highly suspect.Another note:
Since Moller's pictures show no scale, it's difficult to make a reasonable measurement. These wheels could be 4 feet wide! Furthermore, they all have thick rims and espeacially the last one simply looks ridiculous. There's practically no room for the spokes.Final Question:
Where did you get this picture from? Can you show a more detailed version or a link where I can see it?
Would be appreciated.Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Either these horses and cattle belonged to the Jews and the engulving flood started a little to soon.
Or it belonged to the Egytpians, who Moses claims didn't have any cattle and horses LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-27-2004 07:03 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

I didn't state that the city wasn't called Pi-Ramese, Lysimachus did, so I guess it's better to adress these points to him, rather then me.
I can live with the fact that it might have been recovered and might have been older. That doesn't change the fact that Pithom isn't and it's mentioned in the same sentence in exodus.
The fact that the word Pi wasn't used before Ramesse is an argument from Lysimachus, not mine. So, if we can conclude that we shouldn't be looking for Pi-Ramesse, that's fine by me, Pithom has been found and dated. I've done no such thing. I've simply stated that they didn't fit the Egytpian examples we know of. The seabed example doesn't look like those at all. Oooh, you mean this post. With the wink above it and the smily face to show I was just having a laugh, when I found that picture. I even stated later (in another post) that I was kidding.I can't find a statement that Egyptian and Assyrian chariots looked alike. All Assyrian chariot pictures I found had thick rims. Maybe you can show me pictures of thin rimmed Assyrian or Canaanite chariots.The Egyptians and Assyrians didn't use iron as often as everybody thinks. Actually, both nations got iron gifst from the Hittites, (one Assyrian king got a Hittite iron dagger to appeas him around 1250) proving iron to be not available for both those nations to, f.i, apply it to their chariots.Lucy

The history used by Herodotus is an exageration in all respects.
The fleet was only provided by the Greeks, and in later times they had difficulty to supply 200-300 ships. So, most scholars think 200-300 we're the maximum used.
Of the 35 races Herodotus spoke, several only could have send mercenaries, like the Lybians and most had very small territories, so they were never able to field the large number of people or at least a full batallion. And, those man had to be supplied for a year.
Even Napoleon couldn't do that for a year on end and he had less troops. Maybe he had 200.000 troops (which I can hardly believe) but 1.000.000 is totally not possible.About the wheels: Well, he might have when he is the expert on ancient chariot wheels, but supposing he's an egyptologist. He could have stated that Assyrians used these several hundred years later. Assyrians did conquer parts of Egypt in those days. Assyria was a conquered nation (briefly) during 1446.
But, since this example is lost (I believe I saw that somewhere in this thread) it's impossible to say anything about it anymore.And, we're both nitpicky. The picture drawings show me something different, they seem to show you something different. We can at least state that these drawings are imaginative, because otherwise they wouldn't have been needed. So, to shorten this debate (which could go on for days like this) I'll simply await further evidence. A wheel has to be recovered and x-rayd or something. In my view, only one wheel is identifiably visible, and that one doesn't look like the wheels from the period we're examining.Thanks for the picture. It isn't really helpfull, I hoped it would show more of the picture. Furthermore, I hoped it would reveal where it was from.Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

You basically defended Lysimachus' point that we shouldn't be looking for Raamses, because if it was build during the reign of Ramses II, then Pi would have been used (might have been used, we don't know).
You start to defend the fact that Pi-Ramesse is in Qantir. I can live with that (as stated before) and it's fine that it's older as well.
You don't state anything about Pithom though, except There are no two candidtates, Pithom has been found. And it's completely correct with this quote from exodus 1:11"
"....., and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.
They build store cities for the pharaoh's!!
Now, even if Pithom was older (which hasn't been shown yet), you must at least confirm that Pithom was used as a storage city when Ramses build it. The Qantir site as build by Ramses II also fits this bill perfectly. Before Ramses, Qantir Pi-Ramesse was not used as a storage facility.
I'm using the bible to prove a point here..... I never placed this city anywhere. I couldn't care less if they wrote Raamses but actually meant Pi-Ramesse. Let's face facts that you and Lysimachus use this argument. I simply stated that we don't know where Raamses is but we do know where Pithom is. You both keep telling me Raamses might be/might not be Pi-Ramesse.As a side note, concerning Lysimachus:
Please stop using the claim that the Egyptians might shortly have used 4-6-8 spokes during the reign of Thutmosis III and then keep using pictures of Thutmosis IV to back up this statement: Thutmosis IV did not reign around 1445, but Thutmosis III did.One final time about the wheel:
Conclusion so far:
Lysimachus claims; they have not been disclaimed by egyptologists as being something else but Egyptian. So, they are Egyptian and have 4-6-8 spokes, just like in the period of Thutmosis III. Uses pictures of Thutmosis IV to back this up.
Hydarnes claims; The Egyptians might have used foreign chariots. Chariots of the Egyptians look like chariots from neighboring people.Look guys, I can't argue against someone who claims they're all Egyptian and someone who claims they might be foreign or looked foreign. If foreign wheels looked like Egyptian ones, then these also would have slim rims and spokes.
My claim is "The Egyptians wheels used slim rims and spokes. The only identifiable wheel has neither. Pictures of Egyptian wheels have not produced any wheel which looks like the one found on the seabed. (WITHOUT CLAIMING THAT THEY ARE ASSYRIAN!!), the Assyrians wheels of a later time used much thicker rims and spokes, resembling the wheel better that the Egyptian wheels we have found/seen pictures of so far. But these are of a period, hundred of years later.
During the 17th century BC, the Myceneans used 4 spoked wheels f.i. Why can't it be theirs?http://www2.truman.edu/~capter/jins343/064.jpgI claim the wheel doesn't look Egyptian at all. The coral wheels can't be used, because they might have been drawn to fit an assumption. If I wanted to prove that wooden shields and swords were used in the gulf of Aqaba, I could have used the same coral structures Moller has used to prove it. You have to be kidding here. I know of this dagger but did Tutankhamun live before Thutmosis III (or IV)? No, he didn't. There are no other finds of Iron in the 18th dynasty and it's only mentioned twice, once by Thutmosis III (how unfortunate ) and the next historic mention of it is by Ramses II. Both mention it as great gifts.But, if the Pharaoh used foreign chariots. Whose horses did he use? His own had been killed by the 4th/5th plague (I can't remember which it was). Livestock was killed as well, so the cattle bones found can't have been Egyptian either.LucyP.s Usefull link of Pharaoh history, dating (+ list of dating by many other Egyptologists)
Ancient Egypt - Dynasty XVIIIThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-28-2004 08:05 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

There are many "coral growth" websites.
Most concern a specific coral or location.
this one has some general info:Attention Required! | CloudflareThe main conclusion is:
It depends on available space, age of the coral, type of coral (soft/hard), temperature of the water, amount of sunlight and foodaccessabiltiy.Lucy

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Thanks for the complete picture.
This one is apprecaited.Of course I saw it was from the Cairo Museum, but I meant was, which pharaoh is it representing! The name on the left seem to represent Thutmosis, but I can see no feature that specifies which Thutmosis.
About the picture. Although it does show 4 and 8 spokes being used simultaneously, it doesn't show they were used by the same people.
The 4 spoked wheels are fleeing from the pharaoh who's crushing them with his superior 8 spokes chariot.
It looks like a propaganda drawing, showing an opponent who is technically inferior to the Egyptians, crushed by the Pharaoh.LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-28-2004 08:20 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

.....was proof of 4 and 8 spoke wheels during the reign of Thutmosis III.
Again you give me evidence concerning Thutmosis IV.Futhermore, if this was a picture of Thutmosis III, then it is not proving that the Egyptians had 4 spoke wheels during their time (although I admitt that others pictures did, but this is not proving 4 and 8 in one picture, belonging to the Egyptians). It only proves that both wheeltypes existed, not that the Egyptians had them.This wheel debate is getting us nowhere.
All I would like to know now is one question which hasn't been answered yet.
How could the Pharaoh have horses when the livestock plague apparently killed them all?LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-29-2004 06:08 AM

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"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt