A listing of the contradictions and errors in the bible.

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Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
A circle, a closed gometric figure defined such that all the points on the circle are at a constant distance from a center. This distance is called the radius of the circle.

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You might find it helpful to note that Isaiah does not say that the earth is a circle. Instead, he states that there is a "circle of the earth." Meaning that the earth has a circle not that the earth is a circle.You might also find it of interest that the phrase reads "sitteth on the circle" rather than "sitteth on the earth which is a circle." One cannot sit on the edge of a truly two dimensional circle; thus, sitting on the circle itself implies a three dimensional object. It is not necessary to search for some definition of a circle which allows for all three dimensions.

Poor Wordswordsman - obviously doesn't have a circle of friends or he would get out more.

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Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
WS: I saw that and noted it was entirely speculation without reference.

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I gave you a reference.

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The only relationship between a disk and a circle is that the base of a disk (the coin) is "circular". But the circle of the base can't possibly represent the disk, like a circle can represent a sphere, since the disk has a third dimension unrelated to circles- height.

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Pure sophistry. This is amazing. You are arguing mathematics when the real issue is language. How many times have you said 'circle' when you meant 'sphere'? Really? You might say 'round' but 'circle'? No.

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It is inescapable the curvature of the earth would be observed by mariners of ancient times, seeing ships rise from below the horizon.

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I think maybe you over-estimate the ancient mariners. The 'sea-faring' civilizations stayed within site of land. Now if you stay within sight of land and all of your buddies hug the coast as well, you aren't going to see many boats come over the horizon. The boats were low to the water, thereby obscuring the effect you mention. You might be talking about a damned obvious effect if you are watching a 250 foot four mast schooner come over the horizon, but if that boat is a 30 foot row boat? Not so obvious. And lets not forget about waves tossing all of the little boats about, further obscuring the observations.

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There imply was no obvious discussion of a "flat earth" in biblical times

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No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth_ch5.html

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None of the great philosophers referred to the Hebrews or any other ancient group as believing the earth was flat.

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http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Dear Andya, Dont waste your time anymore with Wordswordsman, remember,
never argument with a fool.
He will drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience
In sura 2Al-Baccara , ayat6-7" Inna lathina kafaru sawaon leyhim, anthartahom am lam tonthirhom, la yo`minun.Khatama Allaho la qulubihim wa la sam`him wa la absarihim ghishawatun, wala hum zabon zim"

Proverbs 18:2
A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.WS: I will reason with a fool until the fool abandons reason for folly. At that point it is useless to abandon teaching for argument.Muslims, know that your way is a false way. There is no credibility in Islam, Allah, Muhammad, or the Quran. That's why followers of that cult desire to find sanction in the Bible. It can't be found in the Bible because God knew you would arise with a false teaching that argues with His Holy Word to the damnation of millions of souls. The very fact that the teachings of Islam contradict the scriptures of the Bible should clue you to the fact the Bible wouldn't possibly fortell the heavenly SENDING or CALLING of a prophet such as Muhammad. He was not sent by God, but inhabited by Satan, the fallen angel desperate to destroy as many of the human family as possible. It is Satan who would usurp Jehovah God and deny His Son Jesus, denying the holy record of the Bible.
I have no quarrel with any man personally, but with the spirit of the devil upon and in them. When you touch the Bible with perversion, expect to be treated with the same intensity as Elijah answered the prophets of Baal. He ridiculed their professed god which was unable to aid them. Then he had those fellows killed. I will slay with the truth. The more you touch our Bible, the more Islam will bleed from the shame I heap upon it.
Your Muhammad remains shamed and ridiculed at your own doing by assigning one word in Hebrew as being his name. His name is thereby castigated by the Bible itself. Touch not the holy scriptures. They are life to its believers, death to its enemies.
Deut. 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

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I think maybe you over-estimate the ancient mariners. The 'sea-faring' civilizations stayed within site of land. Now if you stay within sight of land and all of your buddies hug the coast as well, you aren't going to see many boats come over the horizon. The boats were low to the water, thereby obscuring the effect you mention. You might be talking about a damned obvious effect if you are watching a 250 foot four mast schooner come over the horizon, but if that boat is a 30 foot row boat? Not so obvious. And lets not forget about waves tossing all of the little boats about, further obscuring the observations.quote:
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There imply was no obvious discussion of a "flat earth" in biblical times
----------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth_ch5.htmlWS: You contradict your own reference. They state this:
"However, we believe medieval discoverers did NOT fear sailing off the edge of the earth."Nor did pre-medieval mariners fear that. That is promoted in storybooks printed long after those days, spawned by belief in Greek mythology.Solomon was heavily involved with shippers, not row-boats. Shipping by large freighters was commonplace, and it was mariners that did in fact travel beyond the coast in those days, importing and exporting. The Mediteranean was a large enough body of water to teach the lessons nature has for men. There are only a few scattered references to a few philosophers who promoted ideas of a flat earth. That site just continues wild speculation on those few actual hints of even the Babylonians' beliefs. Speculative opinions are no proof of the beliefs of the authors of the Bible. It is distraction. You have not put a hairline scratch on the Bible, and won't.

Thanks bro. Now I know what Christians are made of.

Sword, the reason I start to quote your so-called holy texts was because Peter Borger asked me to. [He slips away somehow, maybe locked in another flame throwing session vs SLPx]. I did, and I learned some valuable lessons from it.1. If your attitude is the usual attitude of Christians, then I'd sooner be an atheist then follow your ways. Do you expect people to convert by name-calling and such? You'd only get flames. Even nos482 can't stand you.2. [For myself] Never claim anything using Bible verses as reference. Not worth the trouble arguing and undefendable because the original texts are nonexistent. Only use empirical evidence for secular arguments and the Qur'an original text for religious arguments (if necessary).Arguing with you has been a hard lesson to swallow, but I now understand what Christians really think. There goes my respect to you.

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Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Thanks bro. Now I know what Christians are made of.

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The same stuff we all are made of.

Originally posted by Andya Primanda:Sword, the reason I start to quote your so-called holy texts was because Peter Borger asked me to. [He slips away somehow, maybe locked in another flame throwing session vs SLPx]. I did, and I learned some valuable lessons from it."your so-called holy texts"? They have the same source as yours as well. 1. If your attitude is the usual attitude of Christians, then I'd sooner be an atheist then follow your ways.All theists are the same in this attitude when they take their religion a little too seriously.Do you expect people to convert by name-calling and such? You'd only get flames. Even nos482 can't stand you.Poor devil, maybe someone should take him to the vet to be put out of his misery. (Disclaimer: In no way do I endorse that someone actually do this.)2. [For myself] Never claim anything using Bible verses as reference. Not worth the trouble arguing and undefendable because the original texts are nonexistent. Only use empirical evidence for secular arguments and the Qur'an original text for religious arguments (if necessary).Both the bible and the Qu'ran should only be used as religious references, they have no other value in the real world.
One thing you should realize, Andya, just because I mainly target Christianity doesn't mean that I condon Islam. I feel the same about all dominance-based religions. It is just that I live in a mainly Christian centred culture and they are the biggest threat to our freedoms and rights. Arguing with you has been a hard lesson to swallow, but I now understand what Christians really think. There goes my respect to you.Not all Christians are as bad as he is, thank god ( ), the same as not all Muslims would crash airplanes into buildings.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-04-2002]

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Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
WS: You contradict your own reference. They state this:
"However, we believe medieval discoverers did NOT fear sailing off the edge of the earth."

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And was I talking about medieval mariners?Concerning the sea-faring Hebrews: No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v20/n16/disk01_.html

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Nor did pre-medieval mariners fear that.

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.... by the time of Aristotle, which is about 2500 to 3000 years-- at least-- after the origin of the myths we are discussing.

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Solomon was heavily involved with shippers, not row-boats.

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The point is the size of the ships used. And I hate to break it to you, but ships of the time had large banks of oars, as the technology to capture wind power was rudimentary. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.artsales.com/lSolomon'sNavy.htmOf special note from the above article: It is speculated that navigation was accomplished not in the open ocean but primarily by short hops along and within view of coastlines.There is also a picture of a common ship design of the time.

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Shipping by large freighters was commonplace, and it was mariners that did in fact travel beyond the coast in those days, importing and exporting.

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Back this up. Until you do, I will consider it just more of your bombast.

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There are only a few scattered references to a few philosophers who promoted ideas of a flat earth.

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You seem to have a real problem with chronology.

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That site just continues wild speculation on those few actual hints of even the Babylonians' beliefs.

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Your speculation, of course, isn't wild.

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Speculative opinions are no proof of the beliefs of the authors of the Bible.

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Glad you agree. So will you now drop YOUR speculative opinions as to the beliefs of the authors of the Bible?

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You have not put a hairline scratch on the Bible, and won't.

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And that is the difference between you and I. I actually care about the truth, and I mean that sincerely.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 10-04-2002]

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Originally posted by John:
I think maybe you over-estimate the ancient mariners. The 'sea-faring' civilizations stayed within site of land. Now if you stay within sight of land and all of your buddies hug the coast as well, you aren't going to see many boats come over the horizon. The boats were low to the water, thereby obscuring the effect you mention. You might be talking about a damned obvious effect if you are watching a 250 foot four mast schooner come over the horizon, but if that boat is a 30 foot row boat? Not so obvious. And lets not forget about waves tossing all of the little boats about, further obscuring the observations.

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You might be suprised by the amount of evidence that has been presented for ancient transatlantic travel. The book America BC pesents several archeological studies of ancient European and Egyptian presence in America and a simple search of "America BC" will reveal several internet pages which address the same topic. However, it is possible to observe the curvature of the earth without a long ocean voyage. The same curvature which causes one to see a ship dissapear over the horizon, will also cause one to see distant mountains rising out of the desert. Thus it is certainly possible that the ancient Hebrews were cognizant of the spherical shape of the earth, especially after their forty years of nomadic life.

"Thanks bro. Now I know what Christians are made of."WS: Brother? We have opposing fathers. Mine is the Lord God, who is One, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yours is not mine, nor ever will be, for I certify before all men I will never bow to "Allah" or heed Muhammad. To do so would be to commit treason against my God.Indeed it is wise for you to clearly identify and recognize a Christian coming to you in the power of God. You cannot resist and retain honor. I debate with Muslims in many places online and in real life, not one of which has ever prevailed. Most flee when excessively shamed according to Jam 4:7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."I am submitted to God, and I resist anyone coming in the name of Satan through any of his means, be it atheism, humanism, gnosticism, Islam or any other lie.There are many people who entered in believing such lies who have come to realize their gross error, and now are Christians going out to warn others. Most fiercely hang on to their faulty beliefs even when left with no foundation, and that is sad. But it doesn't hinder me from getting the deceived to face the lie. It must be a relentless effort, joined regularly by people armed with powerful insider information that can reach the heart of any Muslim suspecting something terribly wrong with Islam. We get together in a special group to share what we've learned, and there people are trained and encouraged to step out and boldly witness.What Christians are made of? They are born again creatures who seek to act like Jesus Christ, their sins forgiven and daily repenting, and knowing who they are in Christ. That is a threat to any Muslim who cannot know his god. Your god is too remote, away on a trip in the mind of Muslims, unable to assist you, leaving you with no more power than at the tip of a sword. I have the sword of the Spirit.

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
You might be suprised by the amount of evidence that has been presented for ancient transatlantic travel.

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I am aware of some of these theories, but I am not convinced. If you know of some theory that is particularly convincing to you, I'll certainly take a look.

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The same curvature which causes one to see a ship dissapear over the horizon, will also cause one to see distant mountains rising out of the desert.

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I haven't noticed this effect but it is a thought.Three potential problems come to mind.1) Objects appear smaller with distance and resolution becomes increasingly poor. These two effects would conspire, I propose, to obscure the effects you point out. In other words, mountian rising ove the horizon would look pretty much like a mountain increasing in size as one approaches it.2) An uneven landscape would also obscure this effect. As one walks up and down small inclines the mountian would appear to move up and down relative to the highest visible bit of land.3) Heat rising off of a hot desert floor obscures anything at a great distance.

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Thus it is certainly possible that the ancient Hebrews were cognizant of the spherical shape of the earth, especially after their forty years of nomadic life.

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Another thought:Even if the Isrealites noticed that the land around them seemed to curve, it does not follow that they concluded that the world was spherical. They could have concluded that they lived on a huge shallow mountain surrounded by an ocean. This doesn't require a conscience belief in a spherical planet.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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You might find it helpful to note that Isaiah does not say that the earth is a circle. Instead, he states that there is a "circle of the earth." Meaning that the earth has a circle not that the earth is a circle.You might also find it of interest that the phrase reads "sitteth on the circle" rather than "sitteth on the earth which is a circle." One cannot sit on the edge of a truly two dimensional circle; thus, sitting on the circle itself implies a three dimensional object. It is not necessary to search for some definition of a circle which allows for all three dimensions.
-----------------------WS: Good points. I ran across a thought somewhere reading up on the subject, that the earth does cast a circular image against the moon, marking the lunar cycles. It took men a very long time to realize what caused that, though it was there in text all along. God knew, men caught up. Only part of the image is actually seen intercepted by the moon, the rest of the earth's outline casting somewhere else, maybe where God sits looking down.