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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 384 (430360)
10-24-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
10-24-2007 7:44 PM


Re: Never condemn others on a charge you do not understand yourself
If you're going to quote great swaths of the Bible, how about giving a citation?
Romans 2:17-3:31

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2007 7:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2007 10:22 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 384 (430672)
10-26-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by GDR
10-26-2007 3:43 PM


GDR writes:
... you came to the conclusion that it was all a myth.
What's wrong with it being a myth?
Then it seems that if the Jericho story was a fabrication then so was the whole Bible.
What's wrong with the whole Bible being a fabrication? If they fabricated the "God told us to do it" part, how do you know which other parts are (not) fabricated?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 3:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 9:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 384 (430718)
10-26-2007 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by GDR
10-26-2007 9:36 PM


GDR writes:
If by myth he means that the whole story is completely frabicated with no historical foundation whatsoever then I disagree....
I'm asking: if the whole story (or most of it) was fabricated, what would be the problem with that? How would it effect your beliefs?
Are there some parts that are "deal breakers", that would destroy your faith if they weren't literally true? If so, how do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not?
Edited by Ringo, : Added emphasis.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 9:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 10:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 384 (430726)
10-26-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by GDR
10-26-2007 10:34 PM


GDR writes:
Christianity tells the story of God and His creation but without the resurrection there is no Christianity.
I can see I'm not using enough boldface.
I asked: HOW do you pick and choose which bits are allowed to be myth/metaphor and which are not?
I'm trying to find a difference between a Christian who claims the earth must be 6000 years old and a Christian who claims Jesus must have risen from the dead.
I'm not asking for empty opinions. I'm asking for self-awareness.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 10:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 11:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 384 (430742)
10-27-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
10-26-2007 11:11 PM


GDR writes:
If I'm pressed to make a decision on the subject I use any historical or scientific evidence I'm aware of that may apply...
What scientific or historical evidence applies to the resurrection of Jesus?
... consider whether it is consistent within its context and is it consistent with the His message of love.
What does the resurrection have to do with His message of love?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 10-26-2007 11:11 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 3:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 384 (430782)
10-27-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
10-27-2007 3:42 AM


GDR writes:
quote:
What does the resurrection have to do with His message of love?
From your perspective it there is no connection. From my perception it is an example of self-sacrificing love.
I'm glad you're so well-appraised about my perspective. But, yet again, you haven't answered the question. Of course His death (and more importantly, His life) can be seen as and example of self-sacrificing love. I'm asking about the resurrection.
What is it that makes the resurrection a deal-breaker for you? Why is it that the Genesis account can be taken as metaphor/fiction/typo and the resurrection accounts can not?
Something had to have happened and the most sensible conclusion to come to in my view is that they were relating their actual experience of the resurrected Jesus.
If a large event (creation) can be fictionalized, why not a small one (resurrection)?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 3:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 4:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 384 (430802)
10-27-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by GDR
10-27-2007 4:40 PM


GDR writes:
It is evidence of a God that cared enough and loved enough to continue to interact with the creatures he created in his image.
Again, Jesus' life (and death) are "evidence of a God that cared enough and loved enough to continue to interact with the creatures he created in his image". I don't see that resurrection has anything to do with it.
Without the resurrection Jesus would be just another failed messiah.
What's the problem with that, though? The topic isn't about why you prefer Christianity to Judaism or some other brand of theism. It's about why you pick and choose certain parts of the Bible as being "fundamental", while other parts are not.
Is a metaphor or allegory fiction?
Yes.
I don't see that there can be much doubt that the disciples believed that Jesus was resurrected.
Nor can there be much doubt that Frodo believed the ring was magic. The question is: Why do you have to buy into the magic ring to get anything out of the story?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 4:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 6:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 384 (430815)
10-27-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by GDR
10-27-2007 6:18 PM


GDR writes:
Without the resurrection Christianity is nothing but a set of moral values. It ceases to be a faith.
But there are plenty of faiths that don't rely on a resurrection of any kind.
It ceases to be Christianity.
The question still remains: Why does removing the resurrection make it cease to be Christianity but removing the literal six-day creation doesn't?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 6:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-27-2007 7:46 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2007 8:05 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 72 by jar, posted 10-27-2007 8:14 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 384 (436811)
11-27-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taz
11-27-2007 4:26 PM


Re: My thoughts on fundamentalism
Taz writes:
As a challenge, could you tell us if there is any other possible way we can interpret this little passage in Joshua other than the bleedingly obvious interpretation of it, that every man, woman, and child in the city of Jericho was slaughtered upon the command of the all loving christian god?
I don't think that's an example of pick-and-choose fundamentalism. They believe the people deserved to be slaughtered - because God said so. We've seen fundamentalists argue that right here.
Their position is perverted but not inconsistent.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Taz, posted 11-27-2007 4:26 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Taz, posted 11-27-2007 11:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 384 (436914)
11-28-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Taz
11-27-2007 11:07 PM


Re: My thoughts on fundamentalism
Taz writes:
How is this not pick and choose fundamentalism when they absolutely refuse to discuss this at a more individual level?
The OP asks specifically why fundamentalists believe Genesis literally but don't obey the levitical law literally. That's picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they take literally.
They do take the slaughter stories literally, even if they can't explain why the slaughter was justified.
The excuse for eating pork or shellfish is "Jesus put an end to all that" - which they can't explain either. Your example is in the same category: things that were changed by Jesus. Jesus made slaughter bad and crabs good. Insane but consistent.
The Genesis literalism, as per the OP, is different. No good or bad, just happened or didn't happen.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Taz, posted 11-27-2007 11:07 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taz, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 94 of 384 (436987)
11-28-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taz
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


Re: My thoughts on fundamentalism
Taz writes:
Picking and choosing came in when the fundies get to pick which victims to talk about and which victims to ignore.
I hear what you're saying. But you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say:
In fact, the fundies go as far as saying everyone in the city was a sinner.
If "everyone in the city was a sinner", what are they picking and choosing? They don't talk about the specifics of each person's sin because they don't know any specifics. They can surmise the probable sins of some (adults) but not of others (children).
Not knowing is not the same as picking and choosing. It's the God-moves-in-mysterious-ways defense, which is not peculiar to fundamentalists. Most Christians use it at one level or another.
It's no more on-topic than picking and choosing a flavour of ice cream.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taz, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Taz, posted 11-28-2007 1:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 384 (437016)
11-28-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Taz
11-28-2007 1:08 PM


Re: My thoughts on fundamentalism
Taz writes:
It is picking and choosing because they are willing to declare the whole city as sinful but then ignore the fact that logically speaking infants and toddlers can't sin.
That's not a fact at all, as far as fundies are concerned. Because of The Fall™, they believe that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Many of them do believe that infants are sinners from birth.
It's picking the macro level and ignoring the micro level.
Oh for @#$% sake, don't you start with the macro/micro crap.
In other words, even within a specific verse they pick and choose which part of the verse they want to praise and which part they want to ignore.
As I've tried to explain, not knowing the answer to a question isn't necessarily ignoring it.
What actions could the infants and toddlers have done to deserve death?
Again, you're ignoring how fundies actually view sin: according to them, we're all born sinful. No action is necessary to make us "worthy of death".
But when I asked what possible sins the toddlers and infants could have committed, they just pretend like they never heard or saw the question.
Again, not answering a question is not an example of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe. Remember that fundies are supposed to have God whispering profound truths in their shell-like ears at all times. They're embarassed when there's something they don't know. If you don't like the all-have-sinned defense and God doesn't give them a better one, they fall back on the chirping-crickets defense.
Again, incompleteness is not inconsistency.
The topic is about inconsistency of fundie belief and practice, not about refusing to cave in to your interrogation.
Find me a fundy who is willing to answer the question in a straight forward manner....
While I'm at it, why don't I find you an honest man, Diogenes? If a fundie ever gave a straightforwrd answer to any question, it would be a bloody miracle.
... and I'll give you this one.
I already have this one.
Edited by Ringo, : Changed "practise" --> "practice". Not sure if it's right, but it looks better.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Taz, posted 11-28-2007 1:08 PM Taz has not replied

  
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