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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 127 of 384 (514044)
07-03-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
10-24-2007 3:09 AM


anglagard writes:
What is the rationale for worshiping each word in Genesis and ignoring what one does not like in Leviticus or Deuteronomy?
genesis doesnt contain the mosaic law code, leviticus and deuteronomy do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 10-24-2007 3:09 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by anglagard, posted 07-04-2009 3:01 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 137 of 384 (514157)
07-04-2009 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by anglagard
07-04-2009 3:01 AM


Re: Absurd Response
anglagard writes:
The Mosaic Law Code is not the issue. The issue is why do those who find a book infallible still manage to pick and choose what parts to follow and what parts to ignore.
Your diversionary and simplistic comment fools few, if any, around here.
you asked a silly question.
you were comparing apples with oranges. I assume you've read genesis, Leviticus and Deuteronomy so surely you could see the difference in these books...why ask a silly question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by anglagard, posted 07-04-2009 3:01 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by anglagard, posted 07-08-2009 3:54 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 145 of 384 (514370)
07-07-2009 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Perdition
07-06-2009 5:31 PM


Perdition writes:
When someone says one thing but does the opposite, that makes me less likely to follow them, and when they command things that make no sense and in fact contradict other commands, I begin to question not only his motives, but his sanity. If god exists, he's paranoid perhaps suffering from multiple personality disorder.
its not God whom you have to worry about, humans are far more vile and insane.
Psalm 106:35-38 "They went mingling with the nations and took up learning their works. And they kept serving their idols, and these came to be a snare to them. And they would sacrifice their sons and their daughters to demons. So they kept spilling innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land came to be polluted with bloodshed."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Perdition, posted 07-06-2009 5:31 PM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by bluescat48, posted 07-07-2009 5:14 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 148 by Brian, posted 07-07-2009 5:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 179 of 384 (514916)
07-13-2009 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Brian
07-07-2009 5:31 AM


Re: Double standards?
Brian writes:
Any external evidence to support this?
BTW, who says that child sacrifice is wrong? You are judging ancient cultures by modern day western ideals. There are cultures that did practice child sacrifice, but that was their tradition, their history, who are you to say what is right and wrong?
Anyway, how can ritual sacrifice even begin to compare to Joshua 6:21?
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in itmen and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
I suppose it is okay when it is done under Yahweh's request?
there is such a thing as righteous warfare
the cannanites, whom the Isrealites were told to destroy, were these very people who practiced vile acts such as human sacrifice mentioned above.
So please dont compare the cannanites with the righteous judgment of God.
If our govnernments, run by corrupt people, have the right to act as judges over us, who is to say that God cannot have that right? Our authorities can decree capital punishment upon some criminals, why should the God of the universe not have that right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Brian, posted 07-07-2009 5:31 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 12:31 AM Peg has replied
 Message 183 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:49 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 180 of 384 (514917)
07-13-2009 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by anglagard
07-08-2009 3:54 AM


Re: Absurd Response
anglagard writes:
The OP is specific. Why are some statements followed as if direct from the deity and other inconvenient statements simply ignored.
Your probably deliberate misdirection and likely pretend misunderstanding is noted, just as your inability to admit it when wrong.
You said in msg 127
anglagard writes:
What is the rationale for worshiping each word in Genesis and ignoring what one does not like in Leviticus or Deuteronomy?
the law code and the book of genesis are completely different things.
Im sure you know that.
It like me saying, why dont you follow the words of mary poppins the same way you follow the road rules.
absurd indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by anglagard, posted 07-08-2009 3:54 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 182 of 384 (514927)
07-14-2009 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Taz
07-14-2009 12:31 AM


Re: Double standards?
Taz writes:
What could those toddlers have done to have them deemed as criminals?
i dont have an answer to this question. I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.
I do know that the inhabitants of the land were told to leave because the land was being given to the Isrealites, they chose to fight God and the Isrealites and they came off second best.
Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 12:31 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:53 AM Peg has replied
 Message 185 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 1:37 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 186 by bluescat48, posted 07-14-2009 5:59 PM Peg has replied
 Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 8:06 PM Peg has replied
 Message 188 by themasterdebator, posted 07-14-2009 8:15 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 193 of 384 (515045)
07-15-2009 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Brian
07-14-2009 6:49 AM


Re: Double standards?
God directed Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people who carried on depraved practices and defied God. (Deut. 7:1, 2,5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24,25)
But there are instances when he spared the lives of some of the people who Isreal was warring against eg Rahab and to the Gibeonites (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) ...he also laid down rules regarding how warfare was to be carried out that the isrealites had to obey.
so it wasnt discriminant warfare...unlike dropping a bomb on a densely inhabited city for instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:49 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-15-2009 10:32 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 203 by themasterdebator, posted 07-15-2009 11:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 194 of 384 (515050)
07-15-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Brian
07-14-2009 6:53 AM


Re: Double standards?
Brian writes:
Peg code for: "I know God is an evil bstard but I am not going to admit it.
no, I dont believe God is a bastard at all. I've said previously that there are still some aspects of the bible that i dont fully understand, but that doesnt mean that i would throw it away and assume the worst
Brian writes:
But you will automatically assume that God is in the right?
No, i wouldnt automatically assume he was in the right. I've come to that conclusion through my study. I have seen that in all Gods dealings with mankind, his decisions have been based on justice, righteousness and mercy.
I've learnt a lot about the cannanite people and their form of worhsip.
They erected 'sacred poles' which were phallic symbols where gross sexual depravity was carried out. (Ex 23:24; 34:12,13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5) Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were common place. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Asherah, and Anath are presented in an Egyptian text as both mother-goddesses and as sacred prostitutes. Their worship involved mass sex orgies and prostitution. These goddesses promoted sadistic violence and warfare who praised the slaughter of men by being decorated with pieces of mens slaughtered bodies while she joyfully wades in their blood. The figurines found in Palestine are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs.
Would you want to be one of these canaanites children? I think God was doing the right thing.
Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel form of worship. ...this was their religion...Murder bloodshed and sex....and they invented it!
nice bunch of people to get to know. Its no wonder God effaced them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:53 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 195 of 384 (515051)
07-15-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by bluescat48
07-14-2009 5:59 PM


Re: Double standards?
bluescat48 writes:
So if some group approached your country and said their God demanded that you relinquish your land to them, would you?
depends on which God was demanding it...the cannanites refused to acknowledge Isreals God and they soon learnt that they could not fight him and win

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by bluescat48, posted 07-14-2009 5:59 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 196 of 384 (515052)
07-15-2009 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 8:06 PM


Re: Double standards?
Devilsadvocate writes:
If God is not wrong in ordering the murder babies and children, that means it is right or 'good' to murder babies and children. Correct?
his laws against murder would indicate otherwise
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So the children and infants are bloodely butchered because there parents choose to fight for there communities/civilization?
i see what you and everyone else here is saying about this issue. Like i said, i dont have an answer and i dont understand it myself, but perhaps we dont know all the circumstances. Perhaps God was putting those children out of their misery...perhaps he killed them as a kindness rather then leave them to perish after their parents had been killed
seriously, i wish I had something more solid, but i dont. The matter is in Gods hands and I would like to think that he has something up his sleve. Does he?? i dont know that either but i do know that he acts as a righteous judge, he is merciful and he shows it, and he doesnt act out of spite.
Devilsadvocate writes:
Do you actually believe this? You really worry me Peg!
well its happened before...,God sent the prophet Jonah to tell the ancient city of Ninevah (city of bloodshed) that they were going to be destroyed for all the evil acts they were engaged in and when the people repented, God spared them.
So when God sees that repentance is shown, he is merciful. He's proved that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 8:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-15-2009 10:18 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 197 of 384 (515054)
07-15-2009 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 9:51 PM


Re: Double standards?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
(i.e. defending the Biblical mandate by God to murder innocent children and infants while at the same time advocating and promoting the "pro-life" anti-abortion movement). In other words she is enmeshed in a form of moral cognitive dissonance.
OMG seriously you guys need to take up a hobbie of some sort.
So i'm a sociopath now LOL
Im not in anyway condoning the murder of innocent children. But im not going to say that God was in the wrong. We know a lot about the cannanites and their depraved society. If we knew of a society that was behaving that way today, we'd be in their with guns blazing.
We dropped a bomb on japan in a city full of innocent civilians for the sake of ending a war...how do you know that the destruction of the cannanites was not for a similar purpose???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 9:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by themasterdebator, posted 07-15-2009 11:46 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 198 of 384 (515055)
07-15-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Taz
07-15-2009 12:14 AM


Re: Double standards?
Taz writes:
But the last time we ignored and dismissed people like peg, tens of millions of people died horrible deaths as a result. Whole families were systematically gassed to death because a group of people decided they had some kind of divine mandate to exterminate an entire race of people. Gee, sound familiar?
Hitler claimed to have a divine mandate???
really???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Taz, posted 07-15-2009 12:14 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Peepul, posted 07-15-2009 9:19 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 200 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-15-2009 9:38 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 206 of 384 (515174)
07-16-2009 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by DevilsAdvocate
07-15-2009 10:18 AM


Re: Double standards?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
DOES GOD FORBID EVERYONE TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE, BABIES, CHILDREN, ETC? YES OR NO?
DID GOD HIMSELF ORDER THE KILLING OF BABIES AND INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES OR NO?
Yes and Yes
Do world rulers on one hand work to save the lives of their citizens, and on the other hand go to war to kill lives of enemies?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
What circumstances allow the following to happen:
Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes:
Please, I am all ears.
civil disobedience.
Authorities have the right to act when their citizens are not acting in harmony with the laws. God was the lawmaker and he was the one who the people had to answer to.
In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
This is just what you are reading out of a 2000+ year old book which has no more credibility than the Illiad and the Odessey. Why do you put so much faith and trust into something that has so little evidence to back it up? Are there any corroborating contemporary stories of Jonah or any other Old Testament character? I am sure some could have been embellshed stories of possibly real people with all the miracles and supernatural events thrown in by later scribes to help propogate these stories but to say that they are 100% true and inerrant is totally baseless conjecture.
the bible has enough coherency to prove itself true, there is enough archeological evidence to prove the bible true, and there is enough consistency to prove it true.
If you dont believe the bible is true, why cling to these stories about a God who killed cannanite children as a reason to denounce him. Its like me going on a crusade against mary poppins because i dont like the way she babysat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-15-2009 10:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-16-2009 10:55 AM Peg has replied
 Message 211 by Perdition, posted 07-16-2009 12:47 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 213 of 384 (515270)
07-16-2009 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by DevilsAdvocate
07-16-2009 10:55 AM


Re: Double standards?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So you think it is good and right that God murders innocent children and babies (is God not all-good as well as all-powerful)? How does that work in your discombobulated brain with promoting pro-life anti-abortion causes?
So are you saying since Hitler, Po Pot and other mass murderurs ordered and coordinated the deliberate massacring of innocent men, women and children that it is ok if 'God' does it too? Please elaborate.
I think you know that the bible does not condone wanton murder. The mosiac laws reflect a deep respect for life that all were to adhere to and if they didnt, then according to God, they did not deserve to live themselves.
The difference here is that when God makes a decision regarding life and death matters, he always acts within his own respect for life principles which is why the Canaanites were deemed as not being worthy of living. They flouted the 'respect for life' principle by their disturbing practices. I cant say why the children died along with their parents, but im certainly not going to go down the path of condemning God.
I am most definitely anti abortion and its through my bible trained conscience that i am such. I am also anti war which is what i've learnt from the bible, I am also anti violent movies and games which is what i've learnt from the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-16-2009 10:55 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 1:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 251 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2009 6:50 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 214 of 384 (515277)
07-16-2009 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by themasterdebator
07-16-2009 12:53 PM


themasterdebater writes:
The behavior is not consistent with God punishing those offending him. The Caananites had been following these practices for hundreds of years. If God had been offended by them he would have properly punished all perpetrators over this long period of time. Yet none of the generations prior to the Israelites arrival suffered the wrath of God for their pagan practices. So if God is really trying to punish those offending him, he is missing a large number of offenders.
im glad you made this point, because it does seem like the issue may have been something other then their practices.
But Moses words show that the reasons behind their destruction was two fold.
Deut 9:1-5. says that it was "in fact, it is for the wickedness of these nations" and "in order to carry out the word that Jehovah swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"
"To your seed I am going to give this land." (Gen 12:1-7)
"To your seed I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates." (Gen 15:17-21)
its true that God could have given some other land to Israel but by giving them this land, he used them as his instruments to destroy the Canaanites. the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were also canaanite cities and they were destroyed a long time earlier due to their conduct.
There is also the indication that God purposed to set a limit upon the Canaanite badness, he even informed Abraham about the future of the nation at Gen 15:16.: "In the fourth generation they will return here, because the error of the Amorites (the strongest Canaanite tribe) has not yet come to completion."
So obviously God had put up with the canaanites for along time and now, with the time for Abrahams children to receive their inheritance, it was also the time for the canaanites to be destroyed completely.
Most interesting though is the fact that the Canaanites knew 40 years in advance that Isreal and its God was coming. (Josh. 2:9-21, 24; 9:24-27) Rahab was a canaanite prostitute who chose to join the isrealites and was spared along with her whole family (she even became an ancestor of Jesus) There was also the city of the Gibeonites who asked Isreal for mercy and were also spared. But the other cities refused to seek mercy and chose to fight instead.
So there was no injustice on Gods part in ordering the execution of all who opposed the isrealites.
The fact is that any canaanites who wanted to be spared could be. But the majority chose to fight. And they lost. Unfortunately, their own actions caused the death of their children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:53 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
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