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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
Inactive Member

Message 188 of 384 (515017)
07-14-2009 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM

Re: Double standards?
i dont have an answer to this question. I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.

I do know that the inhabitants of the land were told to leave because the land was being given to the Isrealites, they chose to fight God and the Isrealites and they came off second best.

Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.

Just for the record, your not going to assume slaughtering large numbers of young children with no practical purpose is wrong? What could they have possible done to offend the Jews other than being born?

I dont see how a toddler would have the comprehension to leave Israel and submit to gods will. Furthermore, if he had done so he would simply die as he is completely unable to fend for yourself.

Furthermore, lets look at what your suggesting to the Caananites.

"Hi, I know you guys have spent your entire lives living here and claimed this territory completely legitimately, but God(who you dont believe in and have never heard of before) wants us to have this land. He is a benevolant God with everyones best interest at heart. So you need to instantly leave this land and find somewhere else to live(which will probably involve a journey that kills a large part of your population because we are surrounded by barren desert) or God will help us slaughter every last one of you(including the ones who have no possible choice of making this decision)"

If you were a Caananite, would you believe this God is someone you would wish to follow? There was no negotiation or attempt to compromise. An all powerful God could have offered the Caananites something in return for giving up their entire livelyhood or he could have avoided the whole mess by creating some land for the Israelites. Instead, he chose to tell the Caananites they could leave their lands(and have a great number of their people die in a search for a new lands) or every last one of them would be slaughtered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 191 of 384 (515031)
07-14-2009 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 9:51 PM

Re: Double standards?
I have to agree with Devil, I don't think Peg is a sociopath. She just behaves like many religious people I know. Whenever they are confronted with something "wrong" in their religion. They first try to rationalize it and if they cant rationalize it they simply don't think about it.

I am expecting this is what Peg is doing. She is rationalizing is right now, but if that does not work I expect her to claim something along the lines of "I do not know but I have faith it is right" then try her hardest not to think of why god would kill small children.

Its very easy to do when you really don't want to lose your current world view. Its much easier to believe a comforting lie that those around you also follow then to face a uncomfortable reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 9:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 203 of 384 (515089)
07-15-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Peg
07-15-2009 7:32 AM

Re: Double standards?
God directed Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people who carried on depraved practices and defied God. (Deut. 7:1, 2, 5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24, 25)
But there are instances when he spared the lives of some of the people who Isreal was warring against eg Rahab and to the Gibeonites (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) ...he also laid down rules regarding how warfare was to be carried out that the isrealites had to obey.

so it wasnt discriminant warfare...unlike dropping a bomb on a densely inhabited city for instance.

Blame shifting and question dodging, but your right. People have a chance of surviving a bob that is dropped on a densely populated city. If the soldiers follow up by going into the city and systematically murdering everyone it is much worse.

They erected 'sacred poles' which were phallic symbols where gross sexual depravity was carried out. (Ex 23:24; 34:12, 13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5) Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were common place. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Asherah, and Anath are presented in an Egyptian text as both mother-goddesses and as sacred prostitutes. Their worship involved mass sex orgies and prostitution. These goddesses promoted sadistic violence and warfare who praised the slaughter of men by being decorated with pieces of mens slaughtered bodies while she joyfully wades in their blood. The figurines found in Palestine are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs.
Would you want to be one of these canaanites children? I think God was doing the right thing.

i see what you and everyone else here is saying about this issue. Like i said, i dont have an answer and i dont understand it myself, but perhaps we dont know all the circumstances. Perhaps God was putting those children out of their misery...perhaps he killed them as a kindness rather then leave them to perish after their parents had been killed

seriously, i wish I had something more solid, but i dont. The matter is in Gods hands and I would like to think that he has something up his sleve. Does he?? i dont know that either but i do know that he acts as a righteous judge, he is merciful and he shows it, and he doesnt act out of spite.

1. Are you really saying an all powerful diety could not do anything better than butcher all the innocent women and children? Is he powerless to provide a means of care for them? An allpowerful being has no excuse for doing something like this.

2. How do you "know" he acts as a righteous judge when situations like this pop up? Is he only merciful when the people in question bow to his will? Because thats what is sounds like with your other example. Unless the people fully bow to the will of God, he has no problem killing all of them. Thats not mercy. Mercy would have been sparing the Caananites who did nothing wrong. Or those minimally involved in evil practices. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

3. Your characterization of the Caananites is incredibly racist. You are assuming every single Caananite is completely involved and devoted to these "evil" practices. As with any society, people would have different levels of involvement. Some would be completely devoted, some would simply be following the crowd, and some would have virtually no involvement(Children, mentally ill, etc) yet each group receives the same punishment, death. This is neither merciful or just.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 7:32 AM Peg has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 204 of 384 (515091)
07-15-2009 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Peg
07-15-2009 8:26 AM

Re: Double standards?
Im not in anyway condoning the murder of innocent children. But im not going to say that God was in the wrong. We know a lot about the cannanites and their depraved society. If we knew of a society that was behaving that way today, we'd be in their with guns blazing.

So your not going to say God was in the wrong for murdering large numbers of infants, just want to make that clear.

We dropped a bomb on japan in a city full of innocent civilians for the sake of ending a war...how do you know that the destruction of the cannanites was not for a similar purpose???

no, because the Israelites had already won the war. God decided to punish them for losing with slaughter of everyone in the city. You can't go into a city and slaughter every man woman and child until you have taken the city in the first place. Furthermore, that would not condone an all powerful beings actions. If GOd is all powerful, he could have ended the war without the death of large numbers of innocents. The United States is not all powerful and took the actions during wartime. They are not comparable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:26 AM Peg has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 212 of 384 (515236)
07-16-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Hill Billy
07-16-2009 9:28 AM

civil disobedience.

Authorities have the right to act when their citizens are not acting in harmony with the laws. God was the lawmaker and he was the one who the people had to answer to.

In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites.

I would prefer if you addressed the numbered points, they each mean different arguments. grouping my entire post as a whole does not accurately represent my viewpoints.

The behavior is not consistent with God punishing those offending him. The Caananites had been following these practices for hundreds of years. If God had been offended by them he would have properly punished all perpetrators over this long period of time. Yet none of the generations prior to the Israelites arrival suffered the wrath of God for their pagan practices. So if God is really trying to punish those offending him, he is missing a large number of offenders. Many Caananites commited offensive practices yet died peaceful deaths because God had not decided to purge them yet. That is in addition to all the other societies which had similar practices yet never faced the wrath of God(Greeks and several Indian societies)

The Israelite Priests however, do have reason they would want to kill all the Caananites. It would strike fear into their enemies they would fight future wars against(important if you are not all powerful, but if you are it serves no purpose), they could simply want revenge(How dare the Caananites defend the land they have owned? Its ours because God says so).

The point of this argument being that while the events may have happened, that does not mean they were sanctioned by an all powerful diety. Killing the caananites in this manner is not an effective way to punish those offending Gods will, but are useful for the high priests and leaders of the Israelites. Saying they are sanctioned by God just makes the acts much easier to commit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Hill Billy, posted 07-16-2009 9:28 AM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 10:49 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded
 Message 217 by Brian, posted 07-17-2009 5:13 AM themasterdebator has not yet responded
 Message 222 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:14 AM themasterdebator has responded

Inactive Member

Message 215 of 384 (515298)
07-17-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Peg
07-16-2009 10:07 PM

Re: Double standards?
I think your "bible trained conscience" is the problem here. It allows for massive contradictions. You seem to be aware that the mass murder of children is wrong and if it had happened anywhere other than the Bible, you would say it is wrong, but because God did it any action is instantly validated no matter how horrific. Never mind that there are reasonable explanations for the actions(revenge and to scare other potential opponents). You start with the assumption that God is right before even analyzing the actions taken place.

At this point, I have to ask you and I want you to address this directly. What action could God take that would lead you to believe he is committing a wrong act? I am not say he will commit such an act, but what would it take for you to believe God's action is wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 10:07 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 07-17-2009 7:09 AM themasterdebator has responded
 Message 221 by Perdition, posted 07-17-2009 10:12 AM themasterdebator has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 224 of 384 (515339)
07-17-2009 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 10:14 AM

Re: ooops
The reply function makes it clear who I am responding to and unless I am responding to a specific part of the post I like to simply use that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:14 AM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 3:44 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 228 of 384 (515345)
07-17-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Peg
07-17-2009 7:09 AM

Re: Double standards?
i dont believe he can do wrong.

I did not say he can do wrong, I said what would he have to do for you to believe he is wrong? Its a hypothetical question which I need answering before the debate can go any further. Now, if the answer is "there is nothing God could do for me to believe he can do wrong", then thats all I need to know to continue the debate.

To clarify with an example, i don't believe gravity will cause to objects to repel, but if I started seeing objects pushing apart proportional to the gravitational formula I would rethink my viewpoints.

Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 07-17-2009 7:09 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Taz, posted 07-17-2009 12:09 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded
 Message 257 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 9:06 AM themasterdebator has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 229 of 384 (515346)
07-17-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 10:53 AM

If one believes in option A then it is unlikely that one could achieve any understanding of the beliefs of those who believe option C.
Believers in option A would view this current life as all there is and therefore would place a very high value on this life.
It's no wonder that believers in option A would view many of GOD's actions as vile.
However, if one believes option C then life here and now hold much less value then the real life to come. This current life becomes only a necessary but temporary diversion.
As innocence is the original state of human being (and GOD'S will), it can be assumed that innocence will grant admission to heaven.
Once one is old enough to lose their innocence then admittance depends on repentance and confession. (honesty)
Based on the beliefs of option C, GOD bringing home the innocent is not a crime but a gift.
The reasoning that it is wrong for a human to take a life but not so for GOD is also simple.
GOD is aware of a humans future and would know if repentance is in that future.
Humans are not. Therefore a human, in taking the life of another human is also taking the possibility of future repentance.

Have a nice day. It could be the last one you have.

1.) I am going to have to disagree that humans can't be aware of someones future. Infants and toddlers are always considering pure by any religion I am aware of, so killing them actually does bring them to the happiness of God. After all, innocence is "the original state of a human being". So why would it be immoral to kill little children if all you are doing is bringing them into heaven AND eliminating the risk they would go to hell(if they grow up they could turn away from God after all). Heck, even if God does forbid it, I would think the right thing to do would be to sacrifice your own soul for the sake of others souls?

2.) This explanation does not make allot of sense when you consider that God consistently does not kill good people when they are at their best. Many people turn away from God at various points in their lives and never look back. No chance of repentance. If God wanted to save these people, he should be taking their mortal lives away before they turn away from him. Yet, this does not happen. Same could be said for those who are wicked and never plan on repenting. Why wait on judging them when he has already proven he will judge some people early? If nothing else, God would be consistent. He is timeless and unchanging, so his policies ought to be the same. If God's policies are different for some people(Caananites) then others(almost everyone else who) then those are not the policies of a perfect God. Any argument for his actions to the Caananites have to be equally applicable to everyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:53 AM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 8:15 PM themasterdebator has responded

Inactive Member

Message 255 of 384 (515429)
07-17-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 6:27 PM

Re: same old

The argument is crap anyway. If it's bad for you it's bad.

Thats a very selfish argument. It would be good for the baby. And if I am willing to consider others happiness over myself then overall it would be good.

While it may not be bad for the baby (assuming you caused no pain) it likely would be bad for those who loved the baby as well as those civil servants that had to deal with the remains.

You are now trying to compare our temporary earthly happiness with the happiness of being in heaven with God. From what I understand, the happiness of Heaven is on a completely different level then what we can experience on earth, plus its an eternal happiness, unlike the temporary sadness here. Although I suppose you could not follow standard christian beliefs. Do you believe peoples happiness on earth is of greater or comparable value to that of being with God in heaven? Otherwise the experience of those saddened by the loss of heaven would not matter, because it is a temporary loss compared to the eternal happiness the child you have sent to God would experience. Note we are not just talking about an event that would be "good" for the baby, we are talking about heaven, which is the greatest happiness one can experience in standard Christian beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 6:27 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 256 of 384 (515431)
07-17-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 8:15 PM

So, using your logic, (seems a bit of a stretch to call it that but, for the sake of argument lets go with it.) It's ok for me to steal if I feed the poor with the proceeds? It's ok to cheat if I can benefit some one else?

Where is the stretch? That you don't want to believe your belief system would condone this sort of behavior? Its a very simply argument. Babies are innocent and guaranteed a spot in heaven. Adults are not. If they die as a baby they are guaranteed eternal happiness. If they die as adult they are not. Killing them as babies eliminates the risk of hell and guarantees eternal happiness. Where is the stretch?

Your analogy is where the stretch is. How is stealing applicable? My own soul is going to be the ones being damned and I address in my other post why the suffering of those losing the baby is insignificant in comparison to the eternal happiness of Christ. The only thing I am really "taking away" is the babies chance to go to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 8:15 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 265 of 384 (515539)
07-18-2009 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Peg
07-18-2009 10:02 AM

Re: Double standards?
bible prophecies would stop being fulfilled...that hasnt happened which gives evidence of Gods purpose still in progress.

Which Biblical proficiencies are you talking about? And how have they been fulfilled? I mean there is the one in John about all these things coming to pass in your lifetime which did not happen. Other than that we have allot of metaphorical vague statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 10:02 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-19-2009 7:11 AM themasterdebator has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 266 of 384 (515543)
07-18-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2009 11:41 AM

Re: More evil than I thought
On predestination, I would say the bigger question would be is God predestined to do what he predicted. Power comes down to the ability to influence and make choices which change things. If he cannot do anything other than what is already fated to do, he would not be in control any more than we are.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2009 11:41 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 275 of 384 (515583)
07-19-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Peg
07-19-2009 5:58 AM

Re: Double standards?
edited for being off topic

Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Peg, posted 07-19-2009 5:58 AM Peg has not yet responded

Inactive Member

Message 280 of 384 (515612)
07-19-2009 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Hill Billy
07-19-2009 5:40 PM

Re: I thought you might think

Insert red hot poker analogy here.

I see where the head smashing the monitor thing comes from. It must be frustrating to be so confused.

Again, observing someone making a choice is not the same thing as making the choice for them.

I understand you seem to think people who go to hell have made a choice to do so, and while this may be true. They are not the only ones to blame. The one who brought them into existence knowing they will go to hell is also to blame. Nobody chooses to exist or chooses to have certain urges which drive them to that action. God is the only one who does that. God brings me into the world knowing I will go to hell. I had no choice in that matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Hill Billy, posted 07-19-2009 5:40 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

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