Existence of God

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Think for a second, will you... do you HONESTLY believe that if the Bible did, in fact, have "many contradictions" that countless millions of people throughout history - including some of our smartest people ever such as Isaac Newton - would have remained believers in the Bible until they died? Would that make any sense?

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I dunno. Were they also relying on logical fallacies?

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Why must people such as yourself always look for the negative side of anything said? Does it provide you with some sort of perverted pleasure? Does it make you feel smart?

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Definitely for perverted pleasure. Thanks for helping.For the record though, I really don't think I'm to blame for errors in your arguments.

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The point wasn't an appeal to authority or to numbers but the fact that it doesn't add up that countless individuals - well educated and intelligent - would say, "Yes, the Bible has many contradictions and I know this but I'm going to pretend that there aren't any, continue believing in the Bible as if there weren't any, and I'll do this until I die."

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Joralex... what you're saying here is an appeal to numbers. Countless intelligent people believe it, so there can't be contradictions? It's like saying, "smoking can't cause cancer. Think of all the millions of people who smoke. Would they do that, even knowing it'll kill them?"

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There is no way that you or anyone can explain such a preposterous notion. The only reasonable alternative is that these alleged contradictions aren't as authentic as you think them to be. How much/in depth have you studied this subject?

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Fairly thoroughly, although I'm far from an expert on the bible. But what's your point? I wasn't saying anything one way or the other on biblical contradictions... only pointing out that your argument that there are none was fallacious.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 10-15-2003]

And for the record... I see the positive side of plenty of things. Just the other day there was an article on msn.com about cyborg monkeys. I thought it was fantastic.

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If 25 of the most prominent Nobel Prize winners came to my house and told me that God didn't exist, how much worth do you think I'd place on their opinion? Let me give you a hint : it wouldn't be enough to buy a stale doughnut.

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My point, for the reading impaired, was that we would have to make a most unreasonable assumption, namely, that people such as Isaac Newton would have to have said sometime in their life : "I know that the Bible contains many contradictions but I'm just going to pretend that they aren't really there and I'll hold that false belief, and continue believing in the Bible, until the day I die."

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I'll just let you compare and contrast those two statements yourself.Regardless... judging by the second statement, your stance seems to be that either there are no contradictions in the bible, or these intelligent people saw the contradictions and conciously chose to ignore them? And given that the latter is ridiculous, there must be no contradictions?Well then, that's not a numbers fallacy. It's a false dilemna.

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That's right, Dan - cut and paste quotations so as to make it appear as if there is logical inconsistency. Ugghhh!

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Blame me for your logical inconsistencies... again.Ugghhh, indeed.

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Regardless... judging by the second statement, your stance seems to be that either there are no contradictions in the bible,

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That's right.

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And given that the latter is ridiculous, there must be no contradictions?

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That is not my conclusion, and you know it.

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So which is it?

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My conclusion is more like this : given that the latter is ridiculous, then it is reasonable to assume that what you regard as a 'contradiction' was examined and resolved in his/her mind and to his/her intellectual satisfaction.

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How is this different from "because the intelligent person couldn't possibly have ignored the contradictions, they must not be there?"

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Failing to arrive at this conclusion you must assume that these people are either outright dishonest or are totally ignoring the facts.

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Big fat false dilemna, all by itself.

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I see... so when you strike out on one line you shift to another.

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You wanna move the goalposts, don't blame me for taking a shot at the new goal.

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This is why I seldom spend too much time debating these issues with people such as yourself - you're going to be right no matter what.

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You said it. Not me.

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Once a question is answered you simply twist the question in another direction or you change the subject or you toss out another question (there's an infinite number of those you know).

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I have this funny quirk where I don't simply accept what people tell me as given fact. When someone makes a statement, I elaborate, or respond, or dear God, even ask a further question.It's probably that perverse pleasure thing again. Man, those further questions are hot.

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The bottom line is what I call 'invincible ignorance' - there is no possible way to "answer" you to the point where you will admit "Hey, maybe I'm wrong here and maybe I should give the other side some real consideration."

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Not if you persist in using logical fallacies as arguments, no. Why would I give any consideration to such tactics?As it happens, Joralex, I always work from the assumption that I might be wrong. But it's still up to you (or anyone else arguing contrary to what I believe) to show me why that would be.It's not my fault if you fail to do so.

Joralex, should we assume in future threads that if someone is arguing for naturalism, you're simply not going to respond to them?

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I've been talking to people such as yourselves (materialists, Atheists, Naturalists, Agnostics... etc...) for many years and a common trait is that when the Christian furnishes one answer then another question takes its place... answer that new question and another takes its place... round-n-round she goes, ad nauseum.

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This may say more about your beliefs and your answers than it does about people such as us.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 10-29-2003]

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Your honor, I rest my case.

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Wow. Your client is screwed. Your honor, I feel no need to discuss the blood-stained murder weapon found in my client's home. The thing I've noticed about district attorneys is that they are always asking questions... question after question... there are an infinite number of questions that can be asked, and it serves no purpose. Feel free, however, to call me after the case, and we can discuss these matters over the phone if you are truly seeking the truth.

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Whose talking about getting "personal"? The idea is to have a scholarly, private setting where interruptions from scoffers don't get in the way.

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If this is honestly your goal, why don't you and Zhimbo (or you and Rei) talk to Percy about setting up a Great Debate topic where the two of you are the only ones allowed to participate?

Don't worry... I'm guessing you won't be the opponent in this one. Should be pretty entertaining!

Right back at'cha, Schraf.And as it happens, my girlfriend has given me until her birthday (25 short days away) to quit smoking. I'd argue, but she controls the girlfriend supply.Who knew cancer was one of her buttons?But yeah, if you're in the Chicago area, I always enjoy a free meal.