Existence of God

"Would it help you if I started a new thread on "Questions Unanswered by Joralex re: the evolution of the eye"?" I have a far better suggestion for you, Zhimbo, and for anyone else that feels that I've "sidestepped/ignored" your questions. But first a disclaimer :

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I've been talking to people such as yourselves (materialists, Atheists, Naturalists, Agnostics... etc...) for many years and a common trait is that when the Christian furnishes one answer then another question takes its place... answer that new question and another takes its place... round-n-round she goes, ad nauseum. This is not a good use of time - for me or for you. I refer to it as 'hoop-jumping' -- keep the guy jumping through endless hoops (i.e., answering endless questions) so that he cannot be anywhere else doing some real good to people that are genuinely seeking the greater truth.

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Questions will always remain - I personally have a zillion of them. The point is that a verdict (i.e., a decision) is required in spite of not having ALL of the answers. After this the appropriate action must follow that verdict.

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I often perceive among the aforementioned people that the questions are nothing more than a front... a justification for remaining in their present position : "Well, you see, God, I had to be intellectually honest and I had all these questions and I couldn't just 'blindly' believe in you until ALL these questions were answered... surely you can understand this, right, God?"

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I ask you, how many answers will it take? How many questions are out there?

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End of disclaimer...

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My suggestion, if you really want to pursue answers to some of your questions, is to contact me directly.

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I believe in the courtesy of well-thought-out responses and taking the time to do so. I will try to find the time to respond to whatever comes my way.

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Joralex

I am uninterested in contacting you directly, when this forum exists for the express purpose of such a discussion. There is no personal information involved, so there is no benefit to discussing these issues privately.The questions are direct and simple. My questions are aimed at understanding and clarifying your argument, and whether specific systems are consistent with your claims. Many of them are "yes" or "no" questions, as far as I can tell.

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I've been talking to people such as yourselves (materialists, Atheists, Naturalists, Agnostics... etc...) for many years and a common trait is that when the Christian furnishes one answer then another question takes its place... answer that new question and another takes its place... round-n-round she goes, ad nauseum.

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This may say more about your beliefs and your answers than it does about people such as us.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 10-29-2003]

I have bumped the Evolution of the Eye thread and re-posted the two questions I left hanging. Rei may want to post her hanging question(s) as well.Here's the post.

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This may say more about your beliefs and your answers than it does about people such as us.

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Exactly, their answers are so vague and illogical that one needs to ask more questions in order to make sense of them. For example, blaming every maleficence that exists (viruses, cancer, carnivores?) on "sin".JustinC

With this argument, you can only argue that information is always the result of an intelligent agent that is verifiable by physical means and exists wholly in a physical universe. Also, this intelligent agent can only operate within natural laws.Do you have an example of CSI arising from a supernatural agent, unverifiable by physical means, and not subject to natural laws? If not, then the best you can argue is that physical beings created CSI here on this planet. This then begs the question of who designed the first designer.

I think we're all curious, Joralex, of what method you feel leads to truth, besides the asking of questions. Maybe the reason we keep asking you questions is because your answers are so lame? Your perception is in error. The evidence of this is that you tend to bust out this tired "oh, too many questions!" objection after only about three questions. All of them.If you don't mind me pointing out, you've made it clear that the reason you hang out here is not to engage us in conversation, but to act as a guide to those who are seeking truth, or something. Leaving off for a moment the question of whether or not your position is true, don't you think you're setting a bad example by avoiding query? Don't you think a person would look at your behavior and think "Hrm, Joralex seems to have a faith that can't stand up to question." Do you really think an honest seeker of truth is going to be impressed by that?[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-29-2003]

While you're around, I still don't know what CSI is. I have answers to some of my questions from those you disagree with and not from you. Does that mean you will let their answers stand?

I am uninterested in contacting you directly, when this forum exists for the express purpose of such a discussion. Your honor, I rest my case.There is no personal information involved, so there is no benefit to discussing these issues privately. Whose talking about getting "personal"? The idea is to have a scholarly, private setting where interruptions from scoffers don't get in the way.The questions are direct and simple. Superficial treatment of these matters is a great part of the problem, Zhimbo.My questions are aimed at understanding and clarifying your argument, and whether specific systems are consistent with your claims. Many of them are "yes" or "no" questions, as far as I can tell. How wrong you are! A 'yes' or 'no' answer to many of these question is about as superficial - and utterly useless - as one can get. With such an approach/attitude, it is no mystery to me why you and many others like you remain in their present state.

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Try seeking deeper, Zhimbo - much deeper - and you'll have some measure of success.

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Joralex

Your reply makes no sense in light of the questions I actually asked in the thread. Have you read them? They are indeed simple questions. They are not final answers to the debate, but finding common points of reference, or aimed at clarifying what points we do or do not agree on."Your honor, I rest my case" makes no sense. I want to discuss things with you. I've tried like hell to discuss things with you. You're the one running away."I rest my case", indeed."Scoffers" don't prevent you answering my questions. Just answer my questions!

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Your honor, I rest my case.

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Wow. Your client is screwed. Your honor, I feel no need to discuss the blood-stained murder weapon found in my client's home. The thing I've noticed about district attorneys is that they are always asking questions... question after question... there are an infinite number of questions that can be asked, and it serves no purpose. Feel free, however, to call me after the case, and we can discuss these matters over the phone if you are truly seeking the truth.

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Whose talking about getting "personal"? The idea is to have a scholarly, private setting where interruptions from scoffers don't get in the way.

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If this is honestly your goal, why don't you and Zhimbo (or you and Rei) talk to Percy about setting up a Great Debate topic where the two of you are the only ones allowed to participate?

Oh yeah, we all know how fascinating those always are.

Don't worry... I'm guessing you won't be the opponent in this one. Should be pretty entertaining!

As long as the two participants both agree to follow the groundrules, which would just be the Forum Guidelines with a few extra rules such as taking turns and so forth, then I think this is a good idea. One of the participants probably needs to be aware that while he hasn't been held to rule 2 recently, it would be enforced in a Great Debate:

2. Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of new information or by providing additional argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without elaboration.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator