Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt

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Since there wasn't an Israel at that time they would indeed have trouble finding it.

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Brian.

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Of course youre right havent really thought about that uptil now but seeing that the land was founded by the hebrews is a funny statement.
But still there were trade routes heading that way. I guess more accuratly saying would be that the trade routes where to Phoenicia (city of Tyrus perhaps?) i dont have the source before me so im relying to my where bad memory..Still its interesting. Ive read some theories that Moses actually where a military leader and that they were in the desert routing out "enemies of the state" for the pharao. Seeing that the ten commandments existed with the egyptians (in a negative form)long before Moses ever got them on the mountain, im guessing Moses had more to do with Egypt and the pharao than the bible tells us.

Almost all of the archaeological evidence today actually points toward Israel emerging from within Canaan rather than this influx of 'proto-Israelites' from Egypt. There was the 'way of the sea' and the 'King's Highway', these had many Egyptian garrisons along them so if the Exodus group existed they would have to avoid them. Oh I have heard more theories about Moses than I care to remember! I don't believe that there was a Moses.Brian

I didn't read through the entire thread, but did anyone ever figure out that the Israelites actual sojourn lasted 210 years? (Look in the Tanach.) The 430 years that they dwelled in Egypt began with the Covenant with Abraham, and the 400 years began with the birth of Isaac, 30 years after the Covenant. There is some pretty strong physical Egyptian evidence of the Exodus occuring at the end of the 6th dynasty, according to The Riddle of the Exodus by Lim Long at Lightcatcher Books. You might look into this.

Well, I don't know about the book, but this guy is associated with Vendyl Jones, and is pushing a variation of the bible codes called the 'Torah Codes'. Those are two massive strikes against this persons scholarship.Does Mr Long have a peer reviewed article in a scientific journal about this?This message has been edited by ramoss, 08-04-2005 08:02 AM

Kswolke: Israel National radio did an interview with Jim Long this past August 1st. The interview was in the latest headlines section titled Riddle of the Exodus.

Jim Long's interview on Israel National Radio is posted in Tamar yonah's section. Additional news Vendyl Jones has said that he was mis-quoted about finding the Ark of the Covenant by August 14th in an May 20th interview on Israel National News. He hopes to find it sometime in September. Depending on funding?

What archeoglical credentials does James D. Long have? What degree does he have from what university? What articles , besides books written for the popular press, has he published?And, I am sure getting money is very important for Vendyl

Ramoss: All archaeological digs are dependent on available funding from public and private sources. Academic funds are very limiting for any type of archaeological field work. Magen Broshi and Hannan Eshel mentioned their lack of funds for their 1996 excavations.

Archaic guy: Yes! I was reminded of his book when I listened to the interview Tuesday-- INN is great, I listen to them almost daily now. Have you tuned into the 'Temple Talk' show? Rabbi Richman is a friend of my parents, and he is 'awesome', there is not one bad thing to say about this man and one just can't say enough good things about the Rabbi. It is incredible how much the Rabbis know and understand that Science and "scholars" don't have a clue about.Otherguy: I have little respect for universities and their scholars, who pass down bs and outdated, incorrect information-- theirs was the era of misinformation. I am ridding myself of decades of ignorant Christian ideology and scholarly agenda driven misinformation. I am not for sure on the Jim Long's book, as I have just ordered it to check it out, and I am too poor right now to go check out this monument in Ismailia, Egypt, but I have found sites with the translations he referred to and feel this stuff is worth checking out, just as I don't discount what the scholars, PHDs Pete and Repeat, have to say on the matter. I agree that we should be skeptical of his association with Vendyl Jones, but lately I have been coming across some other people that associate with Vendyl Jones that are very respectable and reliable-- of course we should research all information with some skepticism and check out all sources, because any schmuck or scholar can write a book or make a show, and I have personally known 'experts' that take this title with NO experience in their 'area of expertise', and I have also known people who were called experts who readily admit that they are not and had no idea someone was quoting them as an expert. If a stranger hands me a plate with dogpoop on it and tells me he is an expert chef and has a masters in cooking and wants me to try this chocolate pastry, I am not going to dig right in because he said so--I would have to find out if his pastry is kosher or not (which it isn't if it is dogpoop), and I would smell it and examine it and ask the ingredients, and even then I would want to be there to witness him make me a pastry, because he could have just picked up a piece of dogpoop and put it on a plate. If most 'scholars' and 'experts' start with the misconception that the Israelites were in Egypt for 400 years, how reliable can their information be-- if you build a house on sand...

I should also point out that not everyone who says they are a Rabbi is a Rabbi, and just because you are an archaeologist named Vendyl Jones doesn't mean that Indiana Jones was modelled after you-- but, just because the writers and movie makers say they didn't model their stories after you doesn't mean they don't want to keep all the money and credit for themselves. I wasn't there.

If Vendyl Jones was a legitament archelogist, that woudl be one thing.
Vendyl Jones is just a religious fanatic using pseudoscience to milk funds from the public to justify fraud. What ever he finds he claims is a biblical gem, or a temple artifact, or something equally amazing. He is not as bad as Ron Wyatt is, but he is not far from Ron Wyatt.Vendyl's motivation is not scientific accuracy, but religious fanatism.Let's see what Dr Joseph Patrich, who took advantage of one of the few digs Jones actually had permission to do. This had to do with some annointing oil that one of Patrich's associates discovered.From Texas Monthly, 1992

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He's not interested in archaeology too much, only in his fundmentalistics ideas," says Patrich with a laugh. "What does the anointing oil have to do with the temple artifacts? He's just wasting money and wasting time and wasting the goodwill of the people because of the place he insists on excavating.

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One thing that I think most of us can agree on is that the Exodus story which was probably written in the 8th-6th century BC, was likely a compiolation of different facts and then embelished upon and attributed to the Hebrew people in many cases. The names and nations mentioned in the OT were real and historical, but they were often converged into different time periods and eras to describe different geographical settings. Thus, the "Way of the Philistines" given as a route god didn't want for the Exodus through Sinai, and Gaza, obviously shows us that if the Exodus did take place in the 1400's bc, the story was later edited by scribes who didn't know that the Philistines and other sea go-ers arrived in 1200, not 1400bc.Little tidbits of this sort of editing are shown all through out the bible. Even with all of this, I believe that the stories are a collective fact fiction--historical places and stories that were based on real settings and historic figures--but greatly embelished and given credit to the Hebrews/Israelites.The Exodus legend most likely was based on the simple trade and commune between semetic peoples and Egypt. The Semetic Hyksos dynasties of Egypt and the Story of Joseph and Jacob[c.1700-1500bc], show some correlation and historical truth. The Idea of Hebrew slaves in Egypt, shows us a convulge of different facts and stories. There were a people called "Habiru", mentioned frequently in the Amarna letters (c.1400 bc)who were runaway slaves attacking Canaanite strongholds (vassals to Egypt). There is a considerable bit of evidence that could show us that the Conquest legend mentioned in the OT, was based on the Habiru slaves attacking these canaanite strongholds in c. 1400-1350bc, and later sites such as Hisban(1200bc) etc. may not have been destroyed till 200 years later when Israel, was mentioned for the first time as a nation in the Merneptah Stele. Thus the "Conquest" really may have been a 200+ year tribal war the Habiru who later became known as "Israel" declared against the Canaanites.Perhaps some of the classical exaggerations of the Exodus are the numbers given which describe thousands of men. Numbers were very often symbolic, not literal. 3,6,7, and 40 were just some of the sacred numbers. The 2.5 million Israelites wandering in the desert are so much of an exaggeration it is quite laughable. I have calculated that there may have been as many as 25,000 Israelites when entering Canaan, but this is truly an enormous number in a barren waterless desert such as Sinai/Negev. Before the Census of Numbers 1. The Book of Exodus mentions "600,000 men on foot" in the hebrew exodus from egypt. This is obviously a mistranslation on the copyists part or just part of an oral exaggeration. Obviously 6,000, or more realisticly 600 men were first intedned. Let's say there were 600 men, that would give an entire Exodus population of 2,400-3,000--Satisfyingly realistic enough.I have recently been in a crowd of 2,000 people in a fundraiser walk, and just being among that number makes me think of how difficult it would be to keep everyone under control, giving each person enough food and water. 2 million would be impossible.Whatever the case, if it was 2,400 or 24,000 Israelites, it seems very possible such an Exodus could have happened. There would be many starving people, and infant deaths among these nomads, but I think that these hardships are described in The books of the OT.Therefore, one could say that the exodus from egypt to Canaan of semetic peoples who later became known as Habiru/Israel, of several tribes numbering ~3,000 among an "unknown multitude", could have occured. And it probably did in my opinion. There is too much historical/legendary evidence to refute these kernals.

Kswolke: I met Rabbi Richman when he visited an archaeological excavation I was participating in Israel during the 1992 dig season. Thanks for mentioning Temple Talk.

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There were a people called "Habiru", ... who were runaway slaves ... There is a considerable bit of evidence that could show us that the Conquest legend mentioned in the OT, was based on the Habiru slaves attacking these canaanite strongholds ...
  —"John Williams"

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Would you please substantiate your identification of Habiru as "runaway slaves" and give examples of this "considerable bit of evidence"?

The term was pretty commonly used and does not seem to point to a specific people and certainly not towards slaves. In addition, other than a vague resemblence between the terms Habiru and Hebrew there is no indications that they at anytime refered to the same peoples or that an organized body of folk could be identified as either. The Habiru seem to have lived all over the middle east and infact, the references seem to point to a possible northern or eastern origin as opposed to a southern/egyptian origin.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion