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Author | Topic: Contradictions: Hint that Genesis 1 and 2 are Allegorical | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member Posts: 33120 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Actually Phat the whole sentence was "If Jesus did believe they actually happened then Jesus was simply wrong. We've learned quite a bit more than Jesus could have possibly know.".
Why should Jesus know all the things we have learned over the last 2000 years? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 1643 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Jesus clearly used a lot of metaphors. No reason he wouldn't have used some from the OT as well as from present experience. He would have not been much of a teacher if he had not.
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jar Member Posts: 33120 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Of course. There is nothing in the stories to suggest that Jesus thought such things were factual.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, again, it IS the traditional understanding of believers. And Abraham goes back to 1900 BC, which is more than a century before the date imputed to the Epic of Gilgamesh even by the scholars whose dating acumen you would of course trust over the Bible's. I'm not sure if Noah was still living in Abraham's time but his son Shem was. Of course Abraham didn't write it down, it was verbally transmitted down to Moses who wrote it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member (Idle past 69 days) Posts: 7051 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
Well it is obviously true.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 1643 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Not conceding your timeline, but it is immaterial anyway. The question is, when were the Genesis creation stories written? Not before the Epic of Gilgamesh. Why not just dictate it to Moses directly? Why risk getting crucial details changed with oral tradition?
As I said, if you are going to invoke miracles every time you turn around anything is possible. Newsflash to you. Individuals did not live to be hundreds of years old in the time of the pre-Hebrew culture. If there is anything real about dates given with all of the begats, it has to do with peoples, clans, tribes, etc., not individuals. Abel represents a clan of herdsmen who were wiped out by Cain, a clan of distantly related agriculturalists. Deal with it.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Amazing what you think you can know without any source of information except your own feverish brain, and even think you can contradict the source of information we DO have. Modern man's self-confidence is really quite remarkable. Evolution gone wrong perhaps?
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frako Member Posts: 2931 From: slovenija Joined: |
Thanx mate i needed that laugh. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 1643 days) Posts: 882 Joined:
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I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes it is amazing that you would contradict information from modern science based on stories written during the iron age based on oral accounts of events which occurred during the neolithic and bronze ages. If you really believe that modern humans were created by God, then that includes the brain and power to reason. Why do we have the reasoning power to solve problems with science if we are just supposed to ignore it all in favor of neolithic creation myths? What kind of God would do that?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6396 From: SSC Joined: |
The story in chapter 1 and the story in chapter 2 are two different stories and happened billions if not trillions or more years in our time apart.
Most Hebrew Scholars agree that they are two different stories they just have different ways of explaining what they believe about them. The Bible is very plain. The heavens and the earth began to exist in Genesis 1:1 Since the verb bara is in the 3rd person perfect it means that the action of God was completed and the heavens and the earth existed. We know they did because in verse 2 they were in a mess. Geneses 2:4 declares that it is the beginning of the history of the day in which God created the heavens and the earth. So everything that took place in chapter 2 of Genesis took place in the same light period in which the heavens and the earth began to exist. I determined the day the heavens and the earth began to exist as a light period, because of God's definition of a light period as a day in Genesis 1:5. This light period in which the heavens and earth began to exist had ended prior to Genesis 1:2 as darkness was over the face of the earth. Genesis 2:4 plainly says day and not night. So God created the heavens and the earth in a light period. A light period is always followed by the evening, preceding the dark period that follows a light period. Now as far as Moses writing the Torah. Moses spent a total of 80 days in the Mount with God. I will make an assumption here that God was explaining how things happened in the beginning and up until God was visiting with him on the Mount. I don't think they were playing checkers or some other game. When Moses was ready to come down from the Mount after the second 40 days God told him to write all the things he had heard. He told Moses that several times in the book of Exodus. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 14873 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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jar Member Posts: 33120 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Are you just making stuff up again Phat.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? In the Bible the God character does not know what is going on and whether or not what She has heard is true and so goes on walkabout to find out. If God does not know what is going on then why should anyone expect Jesus to know what we have learned over the last 2000 years? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 14873 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If you are a Cradle Creedal Christian, however...as you claim, you are ignoring the part of the Creed that shows who Jesus is now. He is not simply the carpenters son long dead.
I will agree that the charge is sound. What I won't easily accept is that GOD if GOD exists is unknowable and that humans are left entirely on our own in this realm and time that we live in. I also disagree with the minimization of the significance of Jesus which you preach. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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jar Member Posts: 33120 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
You amaze me Phat. Now I understand that we need to give special treatment to Creationists and Biblical Christians and allow them to continue making assertions and not address criticism or refutation of their claims of fact but do we also have to accept there apparent short term memory issue so every time something is explained it is immediately forgotten? There are many such passages. One of course is found in Genesis 2&3 but the specific one I was thinking of is from Genesis 18:20-33. quote:
But of course Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew, lived his life as a Jew and died a Jew. His message and his actions were influenced by all those Jews he grew up with.
Short term memory issue again? Have I ever made such an unqualified statement or assertion?
Logic, reason and reality Phat. We have been over that. That charge would still be valid whether it came from God or Jesus or Satan or Buddha or Mencius or Confucius or Coyote or Raven or Ganesha or Isis or ... It is the content that is important, not the source.
That's fine but can you explain why you will not accept such things other than you not wanting the responsibility and hoping someone else will make Tinker glow green again? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 14873 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
![]() Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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