Actually Phat the whole sentence was "If Jesus did believe they actually happened then Jesus was simply wrong. We've learned quite a bit more than Jesus could have possibly know.".
Why should Jesus know all the things we have learned over the last 2000 years?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Jesus clearly used a lot of metaphors. No reason he wouldn't have used some from the OT as well as from present experience. He would have not been much of a teacher if he had not.
Well that is an awkward view, given that the Hebrew version was written well AFTER the other ancient versions.
Well, again, it IS the traditional understanding of believers.
And Abraham goes back to 1900 BC, which is more than a century before the date imputed to the Epic of Gilgamesh even by the scholars whose dating acumen you would of course trust over the Bible's. I'm not sure if Noah was still living in Abraham's time but his son Shem was. Of course Abraham didn't write it down, it was verbally transmitted down to Moses who wrote it.
Not conceding your timeline, but it is immaterial anyway. The question is, when were the Genesis creation stories written? Not before the Epic of Gilgamesh. Why not just dictate it to Moses directly? Why risk getting crucial details changed with oral tradition?
I'm not sure if Noah was still living in Abraham's time but his son Shem was.
As I said, if you are going to invoke miracles every time you turn around anything is possible. Newsflash to you. Individuals did not live to be hundreds of years old in the time of the pre-Hebrew culture. If there is anything real about dates given with all of the begats, it has to do with peoples, clans, tribes, etc., not individuals. Abel represents a clan of herdsmen who were wiped out by Cain, a clan of distantly related agriculturalists. Deal with it.
Amazing what you think you can know without any source of information except your own feverish brain, and even think you can contradict the source of information we DO have. Modern man's self-confidence is really quite remarkable. Evolution gone wrong perhaps?
Amazing what you think you can know without any source of information except your own feverish brain, and even think you can contradict the source of information we DO have.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes it is amazing that you would contradict information from modern science based on stories written during the iron age based on oral accounts of events which occurred during the neolithic and bronze ages. If you really believe that modern humans were created by God, then that includes the brain and power to reason. Why do we have the reasoning power to solve problems with science if we are just supposed to ignore it all in favor of neolithic creation myths? What kind of God would do that?
The story in chapter 1 and the story in chapter 2 are two different stories and happened billions if not trillions or more years in our time apart.
Most Hebrew Scholars agree that they are two different stories they just have different ways of explaining what they believe about them.
The Bible is very plain. The heavens and the earth began to exist in Genesis 1:1 Since the verb bara is in the 3rd person perfect it means that the action of God was completed and the heavens and the earth existed.
We know they did because in verse 2 they were in a mess.
Geneses 2:4 declares that it is the beginning of the history of the day in which God created the heavens and the earth. So everything that took place in chapter 2 of Genesis took place in the same light period in which the heavens and the earth began to exist.
I determined the day the heavens and the earth began to exist as a light period, because of God's definition of a light period as a day in Genesis 1:5. This light period in which the heavens and earth began to exist had ended prior to Genesis 1:2 as darkness was over the face of the earth.
Genesis 2:4 plainly says day and not night. So God created the heavens and the earth in a light period.
A light period is always followed by the evening, preceding the dark period that follows a light period.
Now as far as Moses writing the Torah. Moses spent a total of 80 days in the Mount with God. I will make an assumption here that God was explaining how things happened in the beginning and up until God was visiting with him on the Mount. I don't think they were playing checkers or some other game. When Moses was ready to come down from the Mount after the second 40 days God told him to write all the things he had heard. He told Moses that several times in the book of Exodus.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Why should Jesus know all the things we have learned over the last 2000 years?
In my belief, Jesus is eternal and has thus lived (and lives) a lot longer than the rest of us humanoids. Perhaps an argument can be made between you and I that Jesus was jess human for 33 years...in which case you may have a point, but I believe that His Father was an excellent teacher and that Jesus while on earth was a brilliant thinker. After all, even Solomon had a lot of wisdom, and Solomon is still daid.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
In the Bible the God character does not know what is going on and whether or not what She has heard is true and so goes on walkabout to find out.
Show me what scripture you mean for your example. Also keep in mind that even if what you say is true and that human authors were simply interpreting a "God character" with their own vain imaginations, the God character is quite different in NT writings. I see no fumbling, learning God there. Your entire philosophy as to who God is, whether or not it matters, what responsibility humans now have, and what reality suggests that we use to better understand ourselves and apply to our lives is eccentric. I personally think it was all those Jews you grew up with. I grew up quite close to a large Jewish family that had nine kids. They were always funnin me about the plastic Jesus on the dashboard. They believed that humans had a responsibility to try and do whats best in life...a task that we ourselves must figure out. It sounded really similar to your own personal philosophy.
If you are a Cradle Creedal Christian, however...as you claim, you are ignoring the part of the Creed that shows who Jesus is now. He is not simply the carpenters son long dead.
...one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father
I fear that your Jewish inspired upbringing coupled with the christian boarding school that required you to employ critical thinking led you to conclude that Jesus is nothing greater than you or I.
If God does not know what is going on then why should anyone expect Jesus to know what we have learned over the last 2000 years?
If God (or the God character) does not know what is going on, where does the authority of the charge that compels us to inspire and live our own lives to the best of our ability and to acknowledge when we error, repent, and redirect our path come from?
I will agree that the charge is sound. What I won't easily accept is that GOD if GOD exists is unknowable and that humans are left entirely on our own in this realm and time that we live in.
I also disagree with the minimization of the significance of Jesus which you preach.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
You amaze me Phat. Now I understand that we need to give special treatment to Creationists and Biblical Christians and allow them to continue making assertions and not address criticism or refutation of their claims of fact but do we also have to accept there apparent short term memory issue so every time something is explained it is immediately forgotten?
There are many such passages. One of course is found in Genesis 2&3 but the specific one I was thinking of is from Genesis 18:20-33.
quote:20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Phat writes:
Your entire philosophy as to who God is, whether or not it matters, what responsibility humans now have, and what reality suggests that we use to better understand ourselves and apply to our lives is eccentric. I personally think it was all those Jews you grew up with.
But of course Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew, lived his life as a Jew and died a Jew. His message and his actions were influenced by all those Jews he grew up with.
Phat writes:
I fear that your Jewish inspired upbringing coupled with the christian boarding school that required you to employ critical thinking led you to conclude that Jesus is nothing greater than you or I.
Short term memory issue again?
Have I ever made such an unqualified statement or assertion?
Phat writes:
If God (or the God character) does not know what is going on, where does the authority of the charge that compels us to inspire and live our own lives to the best of our ability and to acknowledge when we error, repent, and redirect our path come from?
Logic, reason and reality Phat. We have been over that. That charge would still be valid whether it came from God or Jesus or Satan or Buddha or Mencius or Confucius or Coyote or Raven or Ganesha or Isis or ...
It is the content that is important, not the source.
Phat writes:
I will agree that the charge is sound. What I won't easily accept is that GOD if GOD exists is unknowable and that humans are left entirely on our own in this realm and time that we live in.
I also disagree with the minimization of the significance of Jesus which you preach.
That's fine but can you explain why you will not accept such things other than you not wanting the responsibility and hoping someone else will make Tinker glow green again?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
That charge would still be valid whether it came from God or Jesus or Satan or Buddha or Mencius or Confucius or Coyote or Raven or Ganesha or Isis or ...
It is the content that is important, not the source.
Did it ever occur to you that we are the content of the source? We are created in the image of GOD. We cant simply make up whatever source we choose. Well...we can but it is unadvisable.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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