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Author Topic:   Contradictions: Hint that Genesis 1 and 2 are Allegorical
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 106 of 115 (888523)
09-19-2021 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
09-19-2021 2:24 PM


Re: No contradictions
But I won't try and define where the Bible *should* fit in any bookstore.
It should go in that big green bin out back.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-19-2021 2:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 115 (888540)
09-20-2021 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
09-19-2021 2:24 PM


Re: No contradictions
Phat writes:
The Bible is not in the fantasy section, however.
Really?
Remember the good ole Dewey Decimal System?
Bible 221-229
Classical (Greek & Roman) religion 292
Germanic religion 293
Religions of Indic origin 294
Zoroastrianism (Mazdaism, Parseeism) 295
Judaism 296
Islam, Babism, Bahai Faith 297
New Age religions and other 299
Or maybe you prefer the Library of Congress classification system:
BL - Religions. Mythology. Rationalism
BM - Judaism
BP - Islam. Baháʼísm. Theosophy, etc.
BQ - Buddhism
BS - Bible

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-19-2021 2:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 115 (888541)
09-20-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
09-19-2021 2:33 PM


Re: Contradictions and Human Constructions
Phat writes:
I suppose that some wag somewhere will attempt to blame God for global warming.
Who created fire?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-19-2021 2:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 09-20-2021 6:20 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18649
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 109 of 115 (888557)
09-20-2021 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
09-20-2021 12:37 PM


Re: Contradictions and Human Constructions
Fire was never a problem for anything until humans evolved enough to abuse it and make gunpowder, etc. If you birthed a kid who turned out destructive despite your best efforts of parenting, should we blame you?
And don't give me that old canard that God by definition should be responsible for fixing everything that inconveniences or hurts humans.
Humans manage to hurt/kill themselves. And it is we who have managed to accelerate global warming into a possible genocidal event.
God may or may not exist but there will again come a time when many people will pray that He does. Watch us botch our financial system next. It's already happening.
AddbyEdit: The "Dusty Old Book" mentions that there will come a time when people cannot buy nor sell without the mark. It is beginning to look like this will play out in some form. Perhaps we need to dust off that book and reread it.
Edited by Phat, : added comment

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 09-20-2021 12:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 09-20-2021 6:40 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 111 by AZPaul3, posted 09-20-2021 7:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 09-21-2021 11:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 110 of 115 (888558)
09-20-2021 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
09-20-2021 6:20 PM


Re: Contradictions and Human Constructions
You really need to learn to read Phat. It's pitiful how little reading comprehension it seems you can muster.
Phat writes:
The "Dusty Old Book" mentions that there will come a time when people cannot buy nor sell without the mark. It is beginning to look like this will play out in some form. Perhaps we need to dust off that book and reread it.
Please provide even one conceivable way that nonsense could come to pass?

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 09-20-2021 6:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 111 of 115 (888563)
09-20-2021 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
09-20-2021 6:20 PM


Re: Contradictions and Human Constructions
If you birthed a kid who turned out destructive despite your best efforts of parenting, should we blame you?
If you are an all powerful all knowing all everything god and your kid is the entire universe then yeah you're to blame.
And frankly if this is his best efforts of parenting then Cruelty, Pain and Evil for Dummies was his parental guide.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 09-20-2021 6:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 115 (888570)
09-21-2021 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
09-20-2021 6:20 PM


Re: Contradictions and Human Constructions
Phat writes:
Fire was never a problem for anything until humans evolved enough to abuse it and make gunpowder, etc.
Who created humans?
Phat writes:
If you birthed a kid who turned out destructive despite your best efforts of parenting, should we blame you?
You're fond of the catch-phrase, "creator of all things seen and unseen" - but you clearly don't believe it. You're constantly adding to the list of things your god didn't create.
The answer is still the same: If you create an attractive nuisance, yes, yes, yes, you ARE responsible for the harm done by it. Whether it's a tiger trap or fire, yes, yes, yes, the creator is responsible. The answer will always be the same, so you can stop asking the question. Yes, yes, yes, the creator is responsible.
Phat writes:
And don't give me that old canard that God by definition should be responsible for fixing everything that inconveniences or hurts humans.
Not "should be". Is. It's not a canard. It's an obvious truth. If you think it's a canard, SHOW how it is.
Phat writes:
God may or may not exist but there will again come a time when many people will pray that He does.
That time has already come, many times. People have been praying to gods for help ever since the first shaman made up the idea of gods. Sometimes people even convince themselves that the gods have answered their prayers.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 09-20-2021 6:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Mah Fallon
Junior Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 08-24-2024


Message 113 of 115 (919992)
08-24-2024 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lpetrich
04-21-2003 1:16 PM


Whete did Cain get a wife from?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by AZPaul3, posted 08-24-2024 2:28 AM Mah Fallon has not replied
 Message 115 by dwise1, posted 08-24-2024 10:42 AM Mah Fallon has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 114 of 115 (919994)
08-24-2024 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Mah Fallon
08-24-2024 12:34 AM


He was Gay.
It's all fake. The story isn't real. It doesn't matter where a fictitious wife for some fictitious character came from. Make up anything. It all fits. Maybe the boy was gay.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 115 of 115 (920001)
08-24-2024 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Mah Fallon
08-24-2024 12:34 AM


Re: Whence Cain's Wife?
Whete did Cain get a wife from?
As AZPaul3 says in Message 114, it's just a story!
That said, generations of fan-boys have argued with each other over their elaborate attempts to rationalize away gaping plot holes like Cain's wife (eg, if ENS Chekov didn't appear on Star Trek until the second season, well after Khan's first-season episode (Space Seed), then how did Khan recognize him in the movie, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan?).
Part of the rationalization (though not necessarily to explain away Cain's wife) is the question of whether all races derive from a common human ancestor (monogenism or "monogenesis") or are the result of separate creations (polygenism or "polygenesis"). Monogenism is the logical consequence and prevailing view of evolution, whereas polygenism has been used to justify racism (including institutionalized racism in Nazi Germany and in the American South).
Actually, I first encountered polygenism on a webpage that examined Nazi books on their Rassentheorie ("Race Theory"). The idea was that Aryans were the true humans descended from Adam, whereas the Untermenschen ("sub-humans") were the result of a separate (and implicitly inferior) creation which necessitated maintaining the purity of the blood by preventing intermarriage.
I next encountered the exact same ideas in connection with American racism. While that may seem to be a coincidence, there is a very good reason. While Nazi anti-Semitism had a long tradition, the Germans had no experience in creating laws to institutionalize racism, outside of traditional sequestering in ghettos which had been done away with a century earlier when the Spanish Inquisition and Constantinian Law (term I have only heard used by my Rabbinic Lit professor, a rabbi, for the body of Roman law in effect in Europe from the 4th century to the mid-19th century that included isolating the Jews and making it a capital crime for a Christian to convert to another religion). For inspiration, the Nazis chose to learn from the experts in institutionalized racism, the USA (especially our Jim Crow laws, but also the highly popular Eugenics Movement). Thus the parallels between Nazi and American racism should be no surprise, since they had copied the ideas from us.
BTW, it was in a presentation by former NCSE Executive Director Dr. Eugenie Scott that I learned the terminology for those ideas: monogenesis and polygenesis. Basically, the difference between the two ideas is that monogenesis says that we humans are all basically the same, of the same kind, whereas polygenesis says that we are of different and separate kinds. Despite creationism's attempts to blame racism on evolution, the reality is that racism is based on creationism. Knowing the necessary keywords is essential to a successful Internet search.
If you follow that link to polygenism/polygenesis you will see discussions of attempts to rationalize the Bible:
quote:
The Bible
To make polygenism compatible with the Biblical account in the early chapters of the Book of Genesis, some argument is needed to the effect that what is in the Bible is incomplete. Three standard positions are:
  • Pre-Adamism;
  • Co-Adamism;
  • incompleteness of the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.
In Christian terms, polygenesis remained an uncommon Biblical interpretation until the mid-19th century, and was largely considered heretical; however, it has been pointed out by some modern scholars that, while Pre-Adamism was strongly rejected by most and deemed heretical, Co-Adamism was not received with the same degree of hostility.

Sections discussing those ideas follow. Pre-Adamism is basically the idea that there were already races of humans living before the creation of Adam. Co-Adamism says that there was more than one Adam – small groups of men, created at the same time in different places across the Earth – and therefore that the different races were separately created.
We saw that in Inherit the Wind which was a fictionalized account of the infamous Scopes Trial when the Clarence Darrow character asks the William Jennings Bryan character where Cain got his wife from, suggesting (quoting from memory) : "Do you think maybe God performed another creation over in the next county?"
In addition, there was the 1966 blockbuster movie, The Bible: In the Beginning. In their account of the Cain & Abel story, Cain receives the Mark and flees, finds a wife (no explanation), and produces descendants who are still with us today (my emphasis added in the following quote):
The Bible In the Beginning:
Eve gives birth to two children: Cain and Abel. When they are older, Cain becomes a farmer and Abel a shepherd. Both make regular ritual sacrifices to God, which Cain's offering is his share of harvest while Abel's offering is a lamb, God then favours the lamb sacrifice made by Abel. Cain, filled with jealousy, murders Abel and runs away. Adam and Eve mourn the loss of both their sons, but God gives them another son, which they named him Seth. Generations come to pass, and most of the descendants of Cain grow evil.
The movie depicts Cain's descendants as black Africans (stock film clip used in the movie showed two native African women, apparently Ubangi or giraffe women, as I seem to recall -- in accessing that image in my memory from 1966, the only time I had watched that movie, I can see the two women sitting and basically what they were doing but cannot quite resolve the lip or neck details with any degree of reliability), reflecting a religious belief (I forget from which denominations) which I have heard several times over my seven decades that black skin is the Mark of Cain:
Wikipedia:
American Protestant racial beliefs on the mark of Cain
At some point after the start of the slave trade in the United States, many[citation needed] Protestant denominations began teaching the belief that the mark of Cain was a dark skin tone in an attempt to justify their actions, although early descriptions of Romani as "descendants of Cain" written by Franciscan friar Symon Semeonis suggest that this belief had existed for some time. Protestant preachers wrote exegetical analyses of the curse, with the assumption that it was dark skin.
Baptist segregationists
The split between the Northern and Southern Baptist organizations arose over doctrinal issues pertaining to slavery and the education of slaves. At the time of the split, the Southern Baptist group used the curse of Cain as a justification for slavery. Some 19th- and 20th-century Baptist ministers in the Southern United States taught the belief that there were two separate heavens; one heaven was for Black people, and another heaven was for White people. Southern Baptists either taught or practiced various forms of racial segregation well into the mid-20th century, though members of all races were accepted at worship services. In 1995, the Southern Baptist Convention officially denounced racism and it also apologized for its past defense of slavery.

 
Unfortunately, that opened up one helluva a festering cesspool.
Nonetheless, hopefully that gives you some leads and search keywords to aid in your research on this question.
Though I feel that I must remind you once more: It is just a story!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Mah Fallon, posted 08-24-2024 12:34 AM Mah Fallon has not replied

  
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