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Author Topic:   Is a Literal Reading of the Bible a Relatively New Gimmick?
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 16 of 43 (84995)
02-10-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
02-04-2004 3:15 PM


I can't list any groups prior to Luther that could have been called literalists, but I do have a suggestion on interpreting what you see.
I think even the fathers were somewhat literal when it came to commands and some other things. Theophilus has a timeline from Adam to his present day, and he obviously took the history found in the Old Testament very literally. Others, I think Justin Martyr is one, uses dates in the Old Testament to argue that Hebrew wisdom preceded Greek wisdom.
You might also try the Waldensians, who go back to the 13th century, although not by that name. I think the Catholics originally called them "the poor." They were noted for taking the Sermon on the Mount quite literally (and worse yet, for living by it!).
Also, the Anabaptists, with names like Felix Manz, Conrad Grebel, and Georg Blaurock, had to be literalists. They are contemporaries of Luther and Zwingli, but they are quite a separate group (they've evolved into Amish and Mennonites, which is interesting on an evolution board, because the Amish, descended from only 46 original families, have some genetic problems as a result).
What's the definition of being literalists? Tertullian's doctrinal battles (c. AD 200) with the gnostics are very literal, in my opinion, and of course, I mentioned Theophilus' literal view of OT history.
My take would be that the fathers took prophecy figuratively, but not history.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 43 (85074)
02-10-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ConsequentAtheist
02-10-2004 7:53 AM


Hi CA,
I finally managed to track down the quote.
The book I used was Israel’s Past in Present Research: Essays on Ancient Israelite Historiography edited by V. Philips Long. Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake 1999. The reference is from the essay by John H Hayes, The History of the Study of Israelite and Judaean History: From the Renaissance to the Present
As I said, I scanned the text into an OCR package. Hayes’ text is in bold, his quote from Kummel is in italics, I have only paraphrased a few words in my notes. Below is Hayes’ text as it appears in the book.(page numbers inserted by me)
From page 14:
In addition to an emphasis on the literal reading of scripture, the reformers argued that scripture is its own interpreter. Luther declared:
(page 13) The Holy Spirit is the plainest writer and speaker in heaven and earth, and therefore His words cannot have more than one, and that the very simplest, sense, which we call the literal, ordinary, natural sense.
All heresies and error in Scripture have not arisen out of the simple words of Scripture. . . . All error arises out of paying no regard to the plain words and, by fabricated inferences and figures of speech, concocting arbitrary interpretations in one's own brain.
(page 14) (For the above texts, see Kummel 1972-73: 20-23.) This emphasis upon a literal reading of the scriptures, which had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a christocentric reading of the Old Testament, did not immediately produce any critical-historical approach to the Bible. Even Luther retained a prophetic-christocentric attitude towards the Old Testament. The idea of the divine inspiration of scripture or the Bible as the word of God halted the reformers short of any really critical approach, although Luther relegated Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation to an appendix in his New Testament translation primarily because of theological reasons which he buttressed with an appeal to the dispute over these documents in the early church (see Kummel 1972-73: 24-26).
The Kummel book is The New Testament: The History of the investigation of its Problems SCM Press, London 1972/3.
I checked my library catalogue and the Kummel book is on the shelf, if you want me to I can get it tomorrow and post the pages that are referenced by Hayes, it is no problem to do this if you are interested in how Hayes/Kummel come to this conclusion.
Brian.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 43 (85076)
02-10-2004 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by truthlover
02-10-2004 10:42 AM


Cheers TL
Thank you very much TL, I am at uni tomorrow so I will look up these references thanks.
I will reply tomorrow or thursday on what I have found.
What you say here is really interesting because, although I am only beginning to research this, it seems to be in line with what I may use as my main line of argument, namely, that the literal approach by Luther actually backfired on the special place that the Bible held in western societies.
I am hovering around the idea that the use of a critical approach to the history of the catholic church, by both protestant and catholic historians, rekindled the critical approaches of Hecataeus, Herodotus, Thucydides etc, that had been buried by the early church historians.
Of course my line of argument may change if this idea is either unsupportable or contradicted by anything else I uncover.
Thanks again for pointing me in a useful direction, I know it may appear sad but I am actually looking forward to a day in the library digging out information on the people you mentioned!
Cheers
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 43 (85088)
02-10-2004 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by truthlover
02-10-2004 10:34 AM


Re: I literally have no proofs..only an opinion
It has some basis. "Christian scriptural interpretation, by definition means interpreting the meaning of the Bible. In the core issue of what the Gospels and the New Testament books mean't, there is a broad agreement between numerous evangelicals. You are correct that there is no uniform consensus, but within the "pail of orthodoxy" there is more of a common thread.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 43 (85089)
02-10-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
02-10-2004 3:40 PM


Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Here is a test. Give me a scripture from the New Testament and I will give you my perception of the basic interpretation. Everyone else reading my interpretation tell us two things. 1) Are you a believer. And 2) Do you basically agree or disagree with my interpretation. OK?

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4568 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 21 of 43 (85096)
02-10-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
02-10-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Hebrews 10:26-31

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 22 of 43 (85119)
02-10-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
02-10-2004 3:40 PM


Re: I literally have no proofs..only an opinion
there is a broad agreement between numerous evangelicals. You are correct that there is no uniform consensus, but within the "pail of orthodoxy" there is more of a common thread.
Pale of orthodoxy, huh? Am I hearing a Hank Hanegraaf listener?
Evangelicals represent a pretty small portion of Christian history, and it was all of Christian history Brian brought up. It really should be no surprise that there is some agreement among one group. That's like saying there's a broad agreement between numerous Roman Catholics.
It's also interesting that in the context of this thread you call it "the pale of orthodoxy." That sounds like you're convince the evangelicals are right.
Of course, in the end, I really don't agree with you even on evangelicals. Are Episcopalians evangelical? I suspect Presbyterians would qualify. Lutherans, too, I imagine. Baptists? Now you have a difference so great that it affects who goes to heaven and who is tortured by God in blistering flames forever because of their evil deeds. Lutherans believe in an efficacious child baptism, while Baptists say that is a gospel of works, and you know that if the Lutherans, Paul, or an angel from heaven preaches any other Gospel, they must be CONDEMNED.
What about the Church of Christ? Are they evangelicals? UPC? I think those would both be considered evangelical, but I'm also sure Hank H. would put them outside the "pale of orthodoxy."
Well, all that's probably off topic, anyway, but only slightly. Brian asked about literalism, and you said generally literalists agree. I don't see that as true no matter how hard you try to stretch the definition of the word agree.

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 23 of 43 (85130)
02-10-2004 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
02-10-2004 3:16 PM


Re: Cheers TL
Thanks again for pointing me in a useful direction, I know it may appear sad but I am actually looking forward to a day in the library digging out information on the people you mentioned!
If it appeared sad, it would have appeared sad to me a long time ago. I've always been amazed at your incredible penchant for study. Astounding!
At first, I thought I had nothing to offer in your thread, because I knew you would want something way more in depth than I'm willing to go. Then I remembered your love for study, and I knew all I had to do was suggest directions, so I'm not surprised I helped. It's easy to help someone like you.
Hey, everyone has their strengths and quirks. I look forward to reaping some benefit from your research, as I'm sure you will. I'll try and help along the way if there's any way I can. My church history reading isn't real great, but I read the fathers for years, and I'm familiar with not just their texts (although I've forgotten a lot), but even their feel.

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 24 of 43 (85131)
02-10-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by zephyr
02-10-2004 4:05 PM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Ooh, ooh...good one!
This will be fun to watch. Can we do Heb 6:2-6 afterwards?

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 25 of 43 (85233)
02-10-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
02-10-2004 9:06 AM


Thanks, Brian.
Do you have any idea what our friend Kummel was talking about? Specifically, to what period of Judaism might he be referring? Certainly not the Tannaitic. It occurs to me that the sentence "had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a Christocentric reading of the Old Testament" might easily refer to no more that an understandable Judaic disdain for those who would twist the Torah into Christian prophecy. It may have little or nothing to do with the type of literalism that we associate with fundamentalism. Furthermore, it seems that Kummel's Judaism is far more monolithic that one would think reasonable.
In any event, I look forward to hearing Kummel's arguments.

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 Message 13 by Brian, posted 02-10-2004 9:06 AM Brian has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 43 (85269)
02-11-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by zephyr
02-10-2004 4:05 PM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
zephyr writes:
Heb 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Context: Who wrote Hebrews? Some have assigned it to Clemens of Rome; other to Luke; and many to Barnabas, thinking that the style and manner of expression is very agreeable to the zealous, authoritative, affectionate temper that Barnabas appears to be of, in the account we have of him in the acts of the Apostles; and one ancient father quotes an expression out of this epistle as the words of Barnabas. But it is generally assigned to the apostle Paul; and some later copies and translations have put Paul's name in the title.I got this from gleaning basic commentaries. I agree with the uncertainty of the author, yet I believe that the scrip is written to believing Jews at that time. Basically, the passage means that once a person has received the Holy Spirit...the impartation of God as the true leading Spirit within them, if they choose to continue to do things the way that they want to do them in opposition to this Spirit, they cannot be helped since they have chosen self will over Christ will. A black and white issue. Either listen to God, or listen to your own desires, but be prepared to pay the price.
Respondants, all I need for this poll is a basic agree/disagree vote, followed by announcing whether you are a believer in Christ or not.

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 27 of 43 (85331)
02-11-2004 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
02-11-2004 12:19 AM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Phatboy writes:
Context: Who wrote Hebrews? Some have assigned it to Clemens of Rome; other to Luke; and many to Barnabas, thinking that the style and manner of expression is very agreeable to the zealous, authoritative, affectionate temper that Barnabas appears to be of, in the account we have of him in the acts of the Apostles; and one ancient father quotes an expression out of this epistle as the words of Barnabas. But it is generally assigned to the apostle Paul; and some later copies and translations have put Paul's name in the title.I got this from gleaning basic commentaries.
Unfortunately, you copied it from a single commentary without attribution, leaving the posted commentary unclear as to authorship in a manner suggestive of plagiarism.
quote:
As to the divine amanuensis or penman of this epistle, we are not so certain; it does not bear the name of any in the front of it, as the rest of the epistles do, and there has been some dispute among the learned to whom they should ascribe it. Some have assigned it to Clemens of Rome; other to Luke; and many to Barnabas, thinking that the style and manner of expression is very agreeable to the zealous, authoritative, affectionate temper that Barnabas appears to be of, in the account we have of him in the acts of the Apostles; and one ancient father quotes an expression out of this epistle as the words of Barnabas. But it is generally assigned to the apostle Paul; and some later copies and translations have put Paul's name in the title.
- see AN EXPOSITION - Commentary on the Whole Bible (1721), by Matthew Henry
For more on the good Rev. Henry, see the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religios Knowledge, which notes that the work, while "long celebrated as the best of English commentaries for devotional purposes", "has no critical value".
For those interested in somewhat more recent commentary, permit me to suggest Kirby's Early Christian Writings.
[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 02-11-2004]

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 43 (85339)
02-11-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ConsequentAtheist
02-11-2004 6:31 AM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Consequent, the point that I am making is that the earthly author does not matter. We could be intellectual and go check out twenty different opinions on "who wrote Hebrews." To a believer, God wrote Hebrews through__________(fill in the blank) THAT IS MY POINT> Your source that you recommend as a more recent commentary states this bit of "wisdom"(?)
The book is anonymous, and its author is unknown.
Can I chalk you in the category of non believer or would you prefer unbeliever. If you refuse to categorize yourself, I shall put you in the category of "anonymous." For the sake of my test, however, let us assume that this book of Hebrews is just another piece of literature. Now, I give you this scripture, Consequent. What does it mean? Do you basically agree with my meaning? If not, tell us what you THINK it means> [This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-11-2004]
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-11-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-11-2004 6:31 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 43 (85460)
02-11-2004 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist
02-10-2004 9:35 PM


Kummel
Hi CA,
I looked over the pages referenced by Hayes, and I cannot see where his conclusions come from. Here are the pages anyway, perhaps they will make more sense to you.
However, Kummel's book Page 20: Chapter 2: The Period of the Reformation.
As we have seen, humanism was unable to call a genuinely historical criticism of the New Testament into being within the framework of the Catholic Church. However, in connection with the theology of the Reformation three fundamental observations were made, though to be sure their revolutionary consequences for New Testament research did not at first become apparent.
In the first place we draw attention to the basic recognition of the Reformers that it is not the Church and not the pope who can determine the sense of Holy Scripture, but that Holy Scripture is the only and final source of revelation for Christians; and that consequently Scripture is to be explained by Scripture itself. During the altercation with Cajetan and Eck (1518-19) at the Diet of Augsburg and at the debate at Leipzig Martin Luther, in the course of disputing the authority of the councils, reached the conviction that only Scripture could impart the truth of God. Then, in a form that was to have worldwide historical consequences, he articulated this insight at the end of his address in defense of himself to the Diet of Worms (1521), and repeated it still later in his confession published in 1538 (the so-called Smalcald Articles.)10
The Holy Scriptures must needs be clearer, easier of interpretation, and more certain than any other scriptures, for all teachers prove their statements by them, as by clearer and more stable writings, and wish their own writings to be established and explained by them. But no one can ever prove a dark saying by one that is still darker: therefore, necessity compels us to run to the Bible with all the writings of the doctors, and thence to get our verdict and judgment upon them; for Scripture alone is the true over-lord and master of all writings and doctrines on earth. If not, what are the Scriptures good for? Let us reject them and be satisfied with die human books and teachers.
Here I answered:
"Since then your serene majesty and your lordships seeks a simple answer, I will give it in this manner, neither horned nor toothed: Unless I am convinced by die testimony of the Scriptures or by dear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they (page 21)have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.
"I cannot do otherwise, here I stand, may God help me, Amen." A deed or word of the Holy Fathers cannot be made an article of faith. Otherwise whatever of food, clothes, houses, etc. they had would have to become an article of faith, as has happened with their relics. It is the Word of God that is to determine an article of faithnothing else, not even an angel.
And about the same time (1520) for Huldreich Zwingli the Word of God had become the only vehicleand a vehicle effective in its own rightof the renewal of world and Church.11
Now if we have found that the inward man is as stated, and that it delights in the law of God because it is created in the divine image in order to have fellowship with hint, it follows necessarily that there is no law or word which will give greater delight to the inward man than the Word of God. For according to the saying of Isaiah 28, "the bed is shorter than that die adulterer can stretch himself on it, and die covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it." That is, God is die bridegroom and husband of the soul. He wills that it should remain inviolate, for he cannot allow any oilier to be lovedthat is, to be as highly esteemed and preciousas he is. Nor does he will that the soul should seek comfort anywhere but in him, or allow any other word to minister comfort but his Word. For in the same way it is the husband's will that the wife should cleave only to him, lavishing all her care upon him and seeking no other comfort but that which he can give.
When the children of Israel were at their worst, in the days of Sodom and Nineveh, and the whole world in the days of Noah, [God] sent prophets and his Word to them, and those who changed their ways survived, while those who despised his Word were miserably exterminated or imprisoned- In our time do we not see the world in all lands and stations so evil that we shudder at the sight? But, since the Word of God now appears in the midst of all the evil, do we not see dial this is the act of God, who does not will that his creatures, whom he had purchased and paid for with his own blood, should be lost miserably and en masse?
In this way the Bible, which had hitherto been tacitly understood as an expression of the teaching of the Church, was suddenly set apart and the religious interest so directed to its proper understanding that biblical exegesis came to occupy the center of attention as the most important task of. all theological activity. And, since the Bible could no longer have its assured meaning imposed on it from without, it had to be explained wholly from within, and even as early as 1519 Luther had given this recognition its classic formulation, viz., that the Bible must be its own interpreter.12
Furthermore, since we believe that the Holy Catholic Church has the same Spirit of faith that it received at its beginning, why should it not be permitted (page 22) today to study the Holy Scripture, either alone or above all else, as the early church was permitted so to do? For early Christians had not read Augustine or Thomas. Or tell me, if you can, what judge can decide the question, whether the statements o the church fathers have contradicted themselves. As a matter of fact, a judgment must be pronounced by making Scripture the judge, something that is impossible if we do not accord primacy to Scripture in all questions that are referred to the church fathers. This means that [Scripture] itself by itself is the most unequivocal, the most accessible [facillima], the most comprehensible authority, itself its own interpreter [sui ipsius interpret], attesting, judging, and illuminating all things, as Psalm 119 [vs. 130] affirms: "The explanation," or to render it more exactly in accordance with the Hebrew, "the opening or the door of thy words gives light and imparts understanding to the simple." Here the Spirit clearly grants illumination and teaches that insight is given only by the Word of God. as by a door or opening, or (to use a current phrase) as the first stage with which one must begin on the way to light and insight. Further: "The beginning and the head of thy words is truth" [Ps. 119:160]. You see that here also truth is imparted only to the "head" of the words of God; that is, if in the first instance you learn the words of God and use them as the point of departure in pronouncing judgment on all words.
This insight, fundamental in similar fashion to the thinking of all the Reformers, when consistently pursued, has to lead to a strictly historical exegesis of the Bible, and that particularly so since by Luther it was bound up with a second, no less significant, insight. From the medieval tradition Luther had been familiar with the method by which the early church had found in every biblical text a fourfold scriptural sense (literal, allegorical, moral, anagogicalhaving a spiritual meaning with reference to last things) 13, but as early as 1517 he had completely broken with it. More important, however, is the fact that Luther also more and more abandoned an allegorical explanation of Scripture and emphasized that the Word of God has but one meaning, a simple, unequivocal one, even though occasionally he still resorted to allegorical interpretations for devotional ends. And in the very placing of value on the single, literal sense of the text, Luther stood opposed to the humanistic tradition; this insight was a discovery peculiarly his own; he defended his practice both against his papist opponents and against Erasmus; and at the end of his life he expressly reiterated- the hermeneutical principle.14
The Holy Spirit is the plainest writer and speaker in heaven and earth, and therefore His words cannot have more than one, and that the very simplest, sense, which we call the literal, ordinary, natural, sense. That the things indicated by the simple sense of His simple words should signify something further and different, and therefore one thing should always signify another, is more than a question of words or of language. For the same is true of all other things outside of the Scriptures, since all God's works and creatures are living signs and words of God, as St. Augustine and all (he teachers declare. But we (page 23)are not on that account to say that the Scriptures or the Word of God have more than one meaning.
Now, is this matter of the free will to remain forever uncertain and undecided, as one that cannot be proven or refuted by any simple text, hut only, with fabricated inferences and figures of speech, to be introduced, belabored, and driven hither and yon, like a reed in the wind, by people who are completely at odds with one another?
Consequently we may justly maintain that we are not to introduce any extraneous inferences or metaphorical, figurative sayings into any text of Scripture, unless the particulars of the words compel us to do so; unless the mind refuses to accept the simple words, e.g., if the text runs counter to other important passages of Scripture and its natural thrust and meaning, which the alphabetical symbol or the grammar and natural usage, as God created language among men, brings to utterance. For if anyone at all were to have power to depart from the pure, simple words and to make inferences and figures of speech wherever he wished, what else then would Scripture be but a reed that the wind tosses and blows about, or an unstable Proteus and Vertumnus which now would be this and then would be something else. If anyone at all were to have power to do this, no one could reach any certain conclusions about, or prove anything of, any article of faith which could not in this fashion (what I am saying is a tropos or biblical word that is not easy to comprehend) be contested ....
I have paid especial attention to the fact that all heresies and error in Scripture have not arisen out of the simple words of Scripture (although the Sophists have spread the byword throughout the whole world dial the Bible is a heretical book), but that all error arises out of paying no regard to the plain words and, by fabricated inferences and figures of speech, concocting arbitrary interpretations in one's own brain.
The Doctor said: When I was young I was learned and, strange to say, before I became a theologian I busied myself with allegory, tropology, and analogy and did all sorts of silly juggler's tricks; if anyone had such a skill today he would consider it an amazing gift. I know that sort of thing is utter nonsense, and now I have given it up. This is the method I now employ, the final and best one: I convey the literal sense of Scripture, for in the literal sense there is life, comfort, strength, learning, and art. Other interpretations, however appealing, are the work of fools.
These two observations of Luther's inevitably pointed the way to a scientific approach that would with full seriousness deal with the New Testament in its historical peculiarity. But still more significant than this basic revaluation of the position of the Bible within the whole field of theologya re-evaluation Luther shared with all the Reformerswas Luther's own discovery, which must have been made in course of translating the New Testament at Wartburg and which he articulated in the prefaces to this translation when it was published in September, 1522. From the writings of Eusebius and Jerome, Luther had learned, as had the humanists and Cajetan, that the early church had disputed over the admission of some writings into the canon because there was uncertainty as to their authorship by an "apostle." This questioning, which by itself (page 24)can lead only to a literary judgment about the author and in this way gave occasion for doubting the canonical status of nonapostolic writings, Luther, with a hitherto unknown power of discernment, now sharpened into a tool of theological criticism. He pointed out that the statements of the Epistle to the Hebrews that a second repentance is impossible were incompatible with the demand for repentance in the Gospels and in Paul's letters; he noted that the teaching about justification in the Epistle of James is wholly incompatible with Pauline teaching (an observation he made again at a much later date in a Table Talk); he noted, further, the unquestionable facts that the Epistle of James lacks any real coherence and reflects an essentially Jewish framework of thought; and, on the basis of the prosaic nature of the rest of the New Testament, he criticized the fantastic character of the Revelation to John and the fact that it wholly ignores the central Christian message.15
Hitherto we have had the really certain chief books of the New Testament. But the four following [Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation] had, in ancient times, a different reputation. In the first place, that this Epistle [to the Hebrews] is not St. Paul's, nor any other apostle's is proved by the fact that it says, in chapter 2 [vs. 3], that this doctrine has Come to us and remains among us through those who themselves heard it from the Lord. Thus it is clear that he speaks of the apostles as a disciple to whom this doctrine has come from the apostles, perhaps long after them. For St. Paul, in Galatians 1 [vs. 1], testifies mightily that he has his Gospel from no man, neither through men, but from God Himself.
Again, there is a hard knot to untie in die fact that in chapters 6 [vss. 4-6] and 10 [vs. 26] it flatly denies and forbids sinners repentance after baptism, and in chapter 12 [vs. 17], it says that Esau sought repentance and did not find it. This seems, as it stands, to be against all the Gospels and St Paul's Epistles; and although one might make a gloss on it, the words are so clear that I do not know whether that would be sufficient. My opinion is that it is an epistle of many pieces put together, and it does not deal with any one subject in an orderly way.. ..
Who wrote it is not known, and will not be known for a while; it makes no difference. We should be satisfied with the doctrine that be bases so constantly on the Scriptures, showing a right fine grasp upon the reading of the Scriptures and the proper way to deal with them.
Preface to the Epistles of Saint James and Saint Jude
Though this Epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and hold it a good book, because it sets up no doctrine of men and lays great stress upon God's law. But to state my own opinion about it, though without injury to anyone, I consider that it is not the writing of any apostle. My reasons are as follows.
First: Flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture, it ascribes righteousness to works, and says that Abraham was justified by his works, in that he offered his son Isaac [Jas. 2:21], though St. Paul, on the contrary, teaches, in Romans 4 [vss. 2-3], that Abraham was justified without works, by faith alone, before he offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15 [vs. 6].
(page 25) Now although this Epistle might be helped and a gloss be found for this works-righteousness, it cannot be defended against applying to works the saying of Moses of Genesis 15, which speaks only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul shows in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, leads to the conclusion that it is not the work of any apostle.
Second: Its purpose is to teach Christians, and in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the Resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. [The author] names Christ several times, but he teaches nothing about Him, and only speaks of common faith in God. For it is the duty of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and Resurrection and work of Christ, and thus lay the foundation of faith, as He himself says, in John 15 [vs. 27], "Ye shall bear witness of me." All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach Christ and deal with Him. That is the true test, by which to judge all books, when we see whether they deal with Christ or not, since all the Scriptures show us Christ (Romans 3 [vss. 21 ff.]) and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ (I Corinthians 2 [vs. 2]). What does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or Paul taught it; again, what preaches Christ would be apostolic, even, though Judas, Annas, Pilate and Herod did it.
But this James does nothing more than impel [the reader] to the law and its works; and he mixes the two up in such disorderly fashion that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took some sayings of the apostles' disciples and threw them thus on paper; or perhaps they were written down by someone else from his preaching. He calls the law a "law of liberty" [1:25], though St. Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death and of sin (Galatians 3 [vss. 23-24]; Romans 7 [vss. 11, 23]).
Moreover, in chapter 5, he quotes the sayings of St. Peter, "Love covereth the multitude of sins" (I Peter 4 [vs. 3] ... and of St. Paul (Galatians 5 [vs. 17]), "The Spirit lusteth against hatred [against the flesh]"; and yet, in point of time, St. James was put to death by Herod, in Jerusalem, before St. Peter. So it seems that he came long after Sts. Peter and Paul.
In a word, he wants to guard against those who relied on faith without works, and is unequal to the task in spirit, thought, and words, and rends the Scriptures and thereby resists Paul and all Scripture, and would accomplish by insisting on the Law what the apostles accomplish by inciting men to love. Therefore, I cannot put him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from putting him where he pleases and estimating him as he pleases; for there are many good sayings in him. [One man alone is no man in worldly things. How, then, should this single individual avail against Paul and all the other Scriptures?]
Concerning die Epistle of St. Jude, no one can deny that it is an extract or copy from St. Peter's second epistle, so very like it are all the words. He also speaks of the aposdes as a disciple coming long after them [vs. 17], and quotes sayings and stories that are found nowhere in the Scriptures. This moved the ancient Fathers to throw this Epistle out of the main body of the Scriptures. Moreover, Jude, the Apostle, did not go to Greek-speaking lands, but to Persia, as it is said, so that he did not write Greek. Therefore, although I praise the book, it is an epistle dial need not be counted among the chief books, which are to lay the foundation of faith.
Preface to the Revelation of Saint John
About this book of die Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own ideas, and would bind no man to my opinion or judgment: I say (page 26) what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.
First and foremost, the Apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in dear, plain words, as do Peter and Paul and Christ in the Gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak of Christ and His deeds without figures and visions but there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so out and out with visions and figures. And so I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and I can in nothing detect that it was provided by the Holy Spirit.
Moreover, he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly,more than any other o the sacred books do, though they are much more important,and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will deal likewise with him, etc. [22:18-19]. Again, they are to be blessed who keep what is written therein; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. It is just the same as if we had it not, and there are many far better books for us to keep. Many of the fathers, too, rejected this book of old, though St Jerome, to be sure, praises it highly and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words; though he cannot prove this at all, and his praise is, at many points, too mild.
Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. There is one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it,Christ is not taught or known in it; but to teach Christ is the thing which an apostle above all else is bound, to do, as He says in Acts 1 [vs. 8], "Ye shall be my witnesses." Therefore I stick to the books which give me Christ, clearly and purely.
Many sweat hard at reconciling James with Paul, as, indeed, does Philip [Melanchthon] in the Apology, but unsuccessfully. "Faith justifies" stands in flat contradiction to "Faith does not justify." If anyone can harmonize these sayings, I'll put my doctor's cap on him and let him call me a fool.
From the beginning, Luther took these judgments so very seriously that, in contrast to the traditional arrangement, he put the four writings he had subjected to theological and historical attack (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) at the end of the New Testament (where they have remained in all editions of the Luther Bible) and did not enumerate them in the table of contents. And though in later editions he deleted or toned down the sharpest judgments on James and Revelation, he never altered this order of these four writings or listed them in his table of all the books of the Old and New Testaments.16 In this way attention was drawn for the first time to the fact that within the New Testament there are material differences between the books of instructiondifferences that cannot be reconciledand as a consequence it became possible to observe the multiplicity of the ways of thinking and the historical genesis of the world of thought of the New Testament. But all this stood in marked tension with the presupposition of the Reformation that Scripture, explained by and of itself, is the sole and unambiguous medium of revelation. Consequently, Luther's personal discover)' was virtually stillborn and was quickly forgotten again.
But even the basic views of Holy Scripture that were common to all...
That's the text as it appears on the page of Kummel's book, any spelling or grammar mistakes will be mine of course!
I dont see anything to substantiate what Hayes is saying, the only other thing I can think of doing is having a look through some of Hayes' books to see where this idea came from, I can do this on Friday afternoon as I am back at uni then.
It occurs to me that the sentence "had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a Christocentric reading of the Old Testament" might easily refer to no more that an understandable Judaic disdain for those who would twist the Torah into Christian prophecy.
Yes, perhaps he is referring to Old testament verses that have been interpreted in such a way as to claim that Christ is in the passage as opposed to the literal meaning. Perhaps something like Isaiah 7:14 (I am guessing here) where the 'virgin birth' prophecy is literally referring to a child born very soon after the prophecy was given, as a sign for Ahaz and not what Christianity has twisted it into.
I will have a look at some of Hayes' books on Friday and get back to you unless you can make sense of the above.
Brian.
PS. Percy, if this post is too long I can delete most of it in a day or two after CA has finished with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-10-2004 9:35 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-11-2004 9:50 PM Brian has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 43 (85515)
02-11-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by truthlover
02-10-2004 9:52 AM


TL :
You are right. I was wrong to label a Church Father like Origen a "nut case ". I formally withdraw the characterization as I am in complete agreement with you as to this persons greatness.
I should of separated the fanatical act of self-mutilation out from the man and his life and what he accomplished.
I made a mistake and now I have corrected it - thank you.
Yet, you too have made some mistakes in this post of yours.
Never did I say or imply that Origen had any unusual desires.
Never did I say Origen was " tormented the rest of his life " .
I offered an opinion concerning the effects of castration. It is assumed the procedure removes desire. Most of time it does not. Desires remain, the ability to perform does not. You missed the entire point though. Christ's statement about offending body parts was made in the context of the N.T./gospel, which Origen didn't seem to grasp as is the case of most literalists.
Then you make more accurate comments concerning the greatness of Origen - I agree.
Then, in true eye for eye payback mentality you use my mistake as a pretext to launch an attack on even a greater man than Origen - Martin Luther. You didn't really care about Origen or your post would of ended there. The true target and intent of the post was to vomit all over Luther.
What offense could anyone take when Luther uses profanity against the devil ? You are more offended over a few street terms than you are with an evil personage like the Devil. Do you feel " even " now that you called Luther a..... " nutball" ? The O.T. says Nehemiah, under the approval of God cursed people to their face and yanked out their beards. Luther cursed out the devil - so what !
Then the pretext continues as you get to the real agenda of your post.
You brand Luther an anti-semite.
You're too dumb to realize that by doing this you have ruined your own objective reputation concerning Luther/Protestantism. No objective person reading this smear from you now cannot ever trust anything you argue about Luther or Protestantism. You played the race card at the drop of a hat.
Honest and inteligent people know the race card is a never ending dead end. This is equivalent to right-wing fundies hatefully accusing Jewry of killing Jesus.
Never once did I in hundreds of pages of evolution debate ever mention the racial bigotry of Charles Darwin. IF I were to of done this then my opponents would rightfully conclude that I really reject Darwinism for reasons other than science/philosophy. Darwin's views toward Africans is completely irrelevant to his scientific theories/discoveries.
In reality you hate Protestants and all that we are. The race card reveals hate. You want to ruin the image of one of the greatest persons of all time and branding them anti-semite is always first on the list of your kind - the truth be damned. I could care less what worthless website you cite as a source. I could crash the server of any website by downloading contrary evidence about Luther. Its a short-sighted act to initiate the never ending dead end of the race card.
" truthlover "......as if your love of the truth exceeds everyone elses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 02-10-2004 9:52 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AdminBrian, posted 02-12-2004 3:37 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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