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Author Topic:   Not The Planet
Bailey
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 112 of 306 (583728)
09-28-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by purpledawn
09-24-2010 1:49 PM


On Flood Variants ..
pd writes:

cs writes:

One other thing too:

They were stuck on the ark for 150 days, isn't that a bit long for a local flood?

As far as it lasting 150 days, it depends on which writer one is reading. According to the J writer the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. (Genesis 7:12 & 17) At the end of 40 days Noah opened the sent out the dove who found no land and then 7 days later he sent the dove again, who then brought an olive leaf. Seven days later the dove was sent again and didn't return. (Genesis 8:6, 8-12) In that story the total was about 60 days.

The 150 day timeline is part of the Priestly writing as is the raven.

So the myth grew over time.

I'm not sure the conclusion portayed above necessarily follows, in the sense that 'the myth (singular) grew overtime'. That still seems a bit ambiguous.

With history being a game of probability and all, perhaps it may be as fair and a bit more specific to say that the myths (plural) grew independently of one another in separate regions after their descent from a common myth. This may begin to lend rational support towards why the myths actually evolved.

If this was the case, one may expect to find distict variation - kinda like the beaks of Darwin's finches, in the details of the myths when comparing the separate tradition's adhered to within the northern kingdom of Yisrael and that which was adhered to within the southern kingdom of Yuhdea.

Granted, none of this considers whether or not the correlating authors intended to portray their flood stories as a local or world wide event.

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 09-24-2010 1:49 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 09-28-2010 5:04 PM Bailey has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 114 of 306 (583908)
09-29-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
09-28-2010 5:04 PM


Re: On Flood Variants ..
jar writes:

weary writes:

If this was the case, one may expect to find distict variation - kinda like the beaks of Darwin's finches, in the details of the myths when comparing the separate tradition's adhered to within the northern kingdom of Yisrael and that which was adhered to within the southern kingdom of Yuhdea.

And we find just that variation, much like the beaks.

Coincidence, or something more

The descriptions of when the flood will happen, what gets killed, what should be taken, how long the flood lasted all are different.

An attentive reader will note all of those distinctions and more, such as the variant dove and raven traditions earlier suggested by purpledawn.

Personally, I continue to find the authors's treatments of the diety's character and the diety's namesake to be interesting, if not revealing.

That is particularly obvious in Genesis 6&7.

Indeed.

Many of these distinctions are so evident they're often pointed out by children. And if so inclined, one may begin to develop each of the separate narratives independently of one another with relative ease; resulting in the similiar - yet unique, exposition of the two stories, each with their own measure of continuity. R.E. Friedman offers a reasonable treatment of this view on pages 54-59 of his work "Who Wrote the Bible?".

In that portion of the booklet he presents a practice exercise of sorts where the dual sources encapsulated within the biblical account of Noah's ark are printed in different fonts. It is suggested that if one reads either source from beginning to end, and then goes back and reads the remaining source, they will be able to perceive two complete and continuous accounts themselves.

For anyone who's interested, I've taken a few minutes to attempt a recreation of this experience, with the Yahwist - or J, in yellow, and P in orange ..


6:5 ~ And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind had become great on the earth, and all the inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the day.
6:6 ~ And Yahweh regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was grieved to his heart.
6:7 ~ And Yahweh said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – everything from humankind to beast to creeping thing to bird of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.”
6:8 ~ But Noah found favor in Yahweh's eyes.
6:9 ~ This is the account of Noah. Noah was a godly man; blameless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with God.
6:10 ~ And Noah sired three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
6:11 ~ And the earth was ruined in the sight of God; and the earth was filled with violence.
6:12 ~ And God saw the earth, and here it was corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth.
6:13 ~ And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them, and here I am going to destroy them with the earth.
6:14 ~ Make for yourself an ark of cypress wood. Make rooms in the ark, and cover it with pitch inside and out.
6:15 ~ And this is how you should make it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.
6:16 ~ Make a roof for the ark and finish it, leaving 18 inches from the top. Put a door in the side of the ark, and make lower, middle, and upper decks.
6:17 ~ And here I am bringing the flood, waters over the earth, to destroy from under the sky all the living creatures that have the breath of life in them. Everything that is on the land will die,
6:18 ~ And I shall establish my covenant with you. And you shall enter the ark – you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.
6:19 ~ And of all the living, of all the flesh, you shall bring two into the ark to keep alive with you, they shall be male and female.
6:20 ~ Of the birds after their kinds, and of the beasts after their kinds, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you so you can keep them alive.
6:21 ~ And you must take for yourself every kind of food that is eaten, and gather it together. It will be food for you and for them.
6:22 ~ And Noah did all that God commanded him – he did indeed.

7:1 ~ And Yahweh said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you as righteous before me in this generation.
7:2 ~ You must take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, man and his woman; and of the beasts which are not clean, two of every kind, man and his woman,
7:3 ~ Also of the birds of the heavens seven pair, male and female, to keep alive seed on the face of the earth.
7:4 ~ For in seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the ground every living thing that I have made.”
7:5 ~ And Noah did all that Yahweh commanded him.
7:6 ~ And Noah was 600 years old, and the flood was on the earth.
7:7~ And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wifes with him came to the ark from before the waters of the flood.
7:8 ~ Of the clean beasts and of the beasts which were not clean, and of the birds and of all those which creep upon the earth,
7:9 ~ Two of each came to Noah to the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
7:10 ~ And after seven days the floodwaters engulfed the earth.
7:11 ~ In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month – on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
7:12 ~ And there was rain on the earth, forty days and forty nights.
7:13 ~ In this very day, Noah entered the ark, accompanied by his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth, along with his wife and his sons’ three wives.
7:14 ~ They entered, along with every living creature according to their kind, and all the beasts according to their kind, and all the creeping things that creep on the earth according to their kind, and all the birds according to their kind, and every winged bird.
7:15 ~ And they came to Noah to the ark, two of each, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
7:16 ~ And those which entered were male and female, some of all flesh came, just as God commanded him. And Yahweh closed it for him.
7:17 ~ And the flood was on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and the waters increased and raised the ark, and it was lifted from the earth.
7:18 ~ And the waters grew strong and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark went on the surface of the waters.
7:19 ~ And the waters grew very very strong on the earty, and they covered all the high mountains that are under all the heavens.
7:20 ~ Twenty feet above, the waters grew stronger, and they covered the mountains.
7:21 ~ And all living flesh, those that creep on the earth, the birds, the beasts, and the wild animals, and all the swarming things that swarm on the earth, and all humankind expired.
7:22 ~ Everything that had the breathing spirit of life in its nostrils, everything that was on the dry ground, died.
7:23 ~ And he wiped out all the substance that was on the face of the earth, from humankind to beast, to creeping thing, and to bird of the heavens, and they were wiped out from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived.
7:24 ~ And the waters grew strong on the earth a hundred fifty days.

8:1 ~ And God remembered Noah and all the living, and all the beasts that were with him in the ark, and God passed a wind over the earth and the waters were decreased.
8:2 ~ And the fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were shut, and the rain stopped falling from the heavens.
8:3 ~ And the waters kept receding from the earth continually, and the waters were abated by the end of a hundred fifty days.
8:4 ~ On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on one of the mountains of Ararat.
8:5 ~ The waters kept on receding until the tenth month. On the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains became visible.
8:6 ~ And it was at the end of forty days, and Noah opened the window he had made in the ark
8:7 ~ And he sent out a raven; aand it went back and forth until the waters had dried up on the earth.
8:8 ~ And he sent out a dove from him to see whether the waters had eased from the face of the earth.
8:9 ~ And the dove could not find a resting place for its foot, and it returned to him on the ark, for waters were on the face of the earth, and he put out his hand and took it and brought it to him to the ark.
8:10 ~ And he waited seven more days and then sent out the dove again from the ark.
8:11 ~ And the dove came back, and here was an olive leaf torn off in its mouth, and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.
8:12 ~ And he waited another seven days and sent the dove out again, and it did not return to him again.
8:13 ~ And it was in the six hundred and first year, in the first day of the first month, the waters dried up from the earth. And Noah turned back the covering of the ark and looked, and here the face if the eart had dried.
8:14 ~ And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth dried up.
8:15 ~ And God spoke to Noah, saying,
8:16 ~ “Go out from the ark, you and your wife and your sons' wives with you.
8:17 ~ Bring out with you all the living creatures that are with you. Bring out every living thing, including the birds, animals, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. Let them increase and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.”
8:18 ~ And Noah went out along with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives.
8:19 ~ All the living things, all the creeping things and all the birds, all that creep on the earth, by their families, they went out of the ark.
8:20 ~ And Noah built an altar to Yahweh. He then took some of every kind of clean animal and clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
8:21 ~ And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma, and Yahweh said to his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from their youth. I will never again strike all the living as I have just done.
8:22 ~ While the earth continues to exist, planting time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night will not cease.”

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 09-28-2010 5:04 PM jar has not yet responded

  
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