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Author Topic:   Not The Planet
ICANT
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Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 57 of 306 (545098)
01-31-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by doctrbill
01-31-2010 12:23 PM


Re: Earth
Hi doctrbill,

doctrbill writes:

"Earth is NOT the planet"

How much of the firm erets is covered by water?

You have dry erets and you have erets covered by water, but it is all erets.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by doctrbill, posted 01-31-2010 12:23 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 59 of 306 (545174)
02-02-2010 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Otto Tellick
02-01-2010 2:53 AM


Re: Earth
Hi Otto,

Otto Tellick writes:

Perhaps you can cite some specific verses in scripture to confirm that this was the perspective held by the original writers.

The discussion was not about what Moses knew or did not know. It was about the meaning of the Hebrew word erets which he used. Whose root means firm and erets means earth or land. It does not distinguish from dry land or land covered with water.

In Genesis 1:9 the Hebrew word yabbashah means dry ground and preceeds erets, producing dry land as all the water was gathered into one place.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Otto Tellick, posted 02-01-2010 2:53 AM Otto Tellick has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 64 of 306 (545259)
02-02-2010 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by doctrbill
02-02-2010 11:24 AM


Re: Water
Hi bill,

doctrbill writes:

Please read the holy word carefully.

Are you sure there is no land or firm substance under water that would be called land if the water disappeared?

doctrbilll writes:

The word 'erets does not appear after the word yabbesheth in Genesis 1:9.

You are correct I was looking at verse 10.

But as Mike pointed out Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

This is a declarative statement of a completed action.

What we see today existed when God created it in the beginning. Whether Moses knew what it was or not does not matter.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by doctrbill, posted 02-02-2010 11:24 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by doctrbill, posted 02-02-2010 8:48 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 66 of 306 (545299)
02-02-2010 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by doctrbill
02-02-2010 8:48 PM


Re: Erets
Hi bill,

doctrbill writes:

True enough. And even if we assume that he knew what he was describing, we are still faced with the question of what he meant by "'erets."

What did the erets in Genesis 1:1 describe and what did Moses mean by it.

It seems to me he was refering to the entire earth.

According to the account of the heavens and the earth in the day the Lord God created them. There was no water except a river that divided into 4 rivers that watered the land. No fish were created in this account found in Geneses 2:4-2:25.

I think science puts forth it was dry in the beginning.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by doctrbill, posted 02-02-2010 8:48 PM doctrbill has responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 75 of 306 (581993)
09-18-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by purpledawn
09-16-2010 8:03 PM


Re: Eretz and Adamah
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

None of which means planet. The word earth does not have a meaning of planet.

Earth 1
Definition: The globe or planet which we inhabit; the world, in distinction from the sun, moon, or stars. Also, this world as the dwelling place of mortals, in distinction from the dwelling place of spirits.
Source

Earth
The globe or planet which we inhabit; the world, in distinction from the sun, moon, or stars. Also, this world as the dwelling place of mortals, in distinction from the dwelling place of spirits.

Source

Definition of EARTH
1: the fragmental material composing part of the surface of the globe; especially : cultivable soil
2: the sphere of mortal life as distinguished from spheres of spirit life — compare heaven, hell
3a : areas of land as distinguished from sea and air b : the solid footing formed of soil : ground
4often capitalized : the planet on which we live that is third in order from the sun — see planet table

Source

Earth
noun
1. ( often initial capital letter ) the planet third in order from the sun, having an equatorial diameter of 7926 mi. (12,755 km) and a polar diameter of 7900 mi. (12,714 km), a mean distance from the sun of 92.9 million mi. (149.6 million km), and a period of revolution of 365.26 days, and having one satellite.

Source

earth noun ( PLANET )
[S or U] (usually Earth) the planet third in order of distance from the Sun, between Venus and Mars; the world on which we live

Source

EARTH, n. erth.

1. Earth, in its primary sense, signifies the particles which compose the mass of the globe, but more particularly the particles which form the fine mold on the surface of the globe; or it denotes any indefinite mass or portion of that matter. We throw up earth with a spade or plow; we fill a pit or ditch with earth; we form a rampart with earth. This substance being considered, by ancient philosophers, as simple, was called an element; and in popular language, we still hear of the four elements, fire, air,earth, and water.


Source

'erets
Definition
land, earth
earth
whole earth (as opposed to a part)
earth (as opposed to heaven)

Source

I am sorry I could not find your dictionary online.

Neither could I find one that gave the primary meaning of earth that agrees with your definition.

All these including the definition of אדץ agree that earth is talking about the whole earth.

But you go right ahead an say it means anything you desire it to say. That is your privilage, just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by purpledawn, posted 09-16-2010 8:03 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 09-18-2010 3:20 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
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 Message 78 by doctrbill, posted 09-19-2010 12:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 79 of 306 (582330)
09-20-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by doctrbill
09-19-2010 12:57 PM


Re: Eretz and Adamah
Hi doctrbill,

doctrbill writes:

1) - Where some Bibles say "whole earth" other Bibles say "whole land."

These some Bibles are translated by people. Some have their own bias.

What difference does it make how it is translated?

If Genesis 1:1 said: "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Land".

What part of the planet Earth could you exclude from what was created?

That would include all the land above water, below water and all the molten land to the center of the Earth.

So what is the problem?

1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What part of planet earth was covered with water according to this verse?

doctrbill writes:

2) - The biblical expression "whole earth," or its alternate "all the earth" (same expression in Hebrew - also translated "all the land") is used to describe the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, and the Macedonian Empire. I doubt you imagine those empires to have encompassed our planet. Eh?

Do you have some particular verses in the Bible you are refering too?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by doctrbill, posted 09-19-2010 12:57 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by doctrbill, posted 09-20-2010 10:20 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 80 of 306 (582342)
09-20-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by purpledawn
09-19-2010 11:18 AM


Re: Land (Exegesis) vs Earth (Eisogesis)
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

It is mind boggling that you don't realize the definitions you provided do not support that the English word "earth" means planet.

It makes no difference what you think about the definitions provided.

The Hebrew word אדץ that appears in Genesis 1:1 encompases the planet earth, all the land above water and under water all the way to the center of the Earth.

Now if you are not satisfied with the definition given by the Hebrew Scholars write your own lexicon.

purpledawn writes:

The English word earth didn't refer to our planet until about the 16th century.

So who decided to use it to represent the Hebrew word אדץ? It wasn't me.

Maybe it was people who thought that was the best English word available to explain what existed in the Heaven in Genesis 1:1 called אדץ.

purpledawn writes:

By continuing to use the word earth when you are actually referring to our planet, it is you who are obfuscating. You want it to remain unclear and confusing. If you want to be clear, stop using the word earth. Use the other meanings of eretz or adamah instead.

Why do I have to accept anything that does not describe what existed in Genesis 1:1.

purpledawn writes:

Eretz and adamah refer to the land, ground, soil, region, etc. depending on how it is used; but the writers were not referring to the third planet from the sun. They didn't know they were on a planet.

So use land if you prefer.

But all land includes all elements that constitute the Planet Earth.

For it to mean a region or specific parcel of land it would have to be specified like it is here:

Genesis 41:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:

Deuteronomy 34:2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,

These verses specify specific parcels of land.

purpledawn writes:

Since you disagree, show me that the Genesis writers knew they were on a globe or planet.

I have no idea who you are talking about when you say the writers of Genesis. I have no idea what those people might or might not know.

Now if you want to talk about the man who wrote the original story that is something different. I don't know what he knew either but I know he spent 40 days with God and God gave him everything needed to know exactly what he was writing about. He did not witness things that took place billions of years ago but I have no doubt he was informed of what took place.

Now what those people you keep talking about did to his original writings only confused the situation. That is the reason there is so much problems today. Too many people have had their hand in what we have today.

That is the reason paul tells us the scripture is spiritually descerned. In other words without the Holy Spirit to lead a person in all truth as Jesus said He would do the Bible is foolishness to the natural man.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by purpledawn, posted 09-19-2010 11:18 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2011 11:10 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 82 of 306 (582472)
09-21-2010 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by doctrbill
09-20-2010 10:20 PM


Re: Eretz and Adamah
Hi doc,

doctrbill writes:

If instead of "Heaven and Land," you said "Sky and Land," it would make more sense. Yes?

No.

Not when Genesis 1:1 is speaking of everything you can see that exists and everything that exists that you can not see.

doctrbill writes:

I think "between the sky and the ground" would make more sense but I haven't found a version which reads that way.

Are you implying he was not hanging between heaven and earth?

He was hanging in the atmosphere between the ground that was under his feet and outer space that is above our atmosphere.

doctrbill writes:

So, it is not unprecedented for translators to say "sky" instead of heaven, and "land" instead of earth. I think this should happen more often, but then no translator has asked me what he should do in this regard.

Translators can say anything they desire to say but nothing they say changes the meaning of what was said. It is just their understanding that is changed.

doctrbill writes:

I don't believe the author was attempting to describe creation of the universe.

That is very apparant from reading your posts.

I suppose you prefer the story that the Universe came from ????? and began to exist because????? but all of a sudden it was there and began to expand because ????? well we know it did it is here and is expanding. Not a very good argument.

Because every time I ask the question where the Universe came from or what caused it to begin to exist I get the answer "We don't Know".

So if nobody knows, how do they know the Bible is wrong?

doctrbill writes:

As you may have noticed, in verses 9 and 10, "Earth" appears in the water under the heaven. It is the "dry" stuff [land] which is called "Earth." The wet stuff, the waters, are called "Seas."

But in the beginning there was no water. In fact science does not know where the water we have came from? They do have a lot of guesses but no theory yet.

Genesis 1:1 is talking about the beginning.

Genesis 1:2 is talking about billions of years after the beginning.

But what is the difference in the land that is wet and the land that is dry?

Remove the water and what do you have? Dry land I presume.

What is the difference in the dry land, the land covered with water and the land that is liquid at the core of the earth? I presume the only difference is their location and viscosity.

doctrbill writes:

At Genesis 1:10 "Earth" is defined as "dry." "Earth" cannot be "dry" if it is covered with water. People did not imagine planet earth in those days but they did imagine that "earth" sat on "foundations" which were in the sea.

The dry earth was caused to appear from the wet earth in verse 9 and in verse 10 that part of erets was called dry earth.

So what is the problem with that?

In Genesis 1:2 the erets was covered with water there was no dry land but erets existed.

It was then and still is now erets whether it is covered with water is dry or is molten.

doctrbill writes:

Happy Hunting

Since when has it become the responsibility of the postee to look up the information asserted by the poster at EvC?

Present your evidence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by doctrbill, posted 09-20-2010 10:20 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by doctrbill, posted 09-21-2010 2:46 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 86 of 306 (582548)
09-22-2010 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by doctrbill
09-21-2010 2:46 PM


Re: Eretz and Adamah
Hi doc,

doctrbill writes:

Since "the postee" wants to be spoon fed so he can spit the pablum back in daddy's face.

Here is the claim you made.

doctrbill writes:

2) - The biblical expression "whole earth," or its alternate "all the earth" (same expression in Hebrew - also translated "all the land") is used to describe the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, and the Macedonian Empire. I doubt you imagine those empires to have encompassed our planet. Eh?

Empire appears in the OT 1 time:

Est 1:20 And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.

The word Assyrian and land appear in the OT in these verses:

Isa 23:13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, [till] the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; [and] he brought it to ruin.
Mic 5:5 And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Mic 5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver [us] from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

The words whole and earth appear in 27 verses in the OT. Not one of them mention Assyria or the Assyrian Empire, Babylon or the Babylonian Empire or Macedonia or the Macedonian Empire.

All the land appears in that exact form 68 times in the OT.

These verses have the Empires you mentioned.

2 Ki 17:5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.
Jer 40:4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which [were] upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land [is] before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.

All the earth appears in 59 verses in the OT.

Not one of them mention Assyria or the Assyrian Empire, Babylon or the Babylonian Empire or Macedonia or the Macedonian Empire.

So which of these scriptures are you refering too for support?

doctrbill writes:

If you can get on the internet and post bullshit, then you can get on the internet and do your homework. Anything less is laziness and willful ignorance. If you care about Bible truth then you'll read a serious translation and forget Mr. Peterson's Funny Book Bible.

I have no idea what Mr. Peterson you are talking about and did not waste my time googling the name.

doctrbill writes:

You are paraphrasing The Message which is itself a paraphrase, NOT a translation, of the Bible. I like a lot of what Peterson has done with that but much of it is simply his own opinions presented as if they were "The Word of God."

Genesis 1:1
בראשית
be-re-shit in beginning noun tells us when.
כרא ba-ra created verb of completed action tells us what.
אלהים e-lo-him God tells us who produced the action.
את et points out the object of the verb
השמים ha-sha-ma-yim the heaven
ואת ve-'et points out the object of the verb
האדץ ha-a-retz the earth

My Translation
In beginning created God the heaven the earth

What is pharaphrased in this declarative statement of completed action?

So what is left out of "the heaven"?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by doctrbill, posted 09-21-2010 2:46 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by doctrbill, posted 09-22-2010 11:21 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 88 of 306 (582651)
09-22-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by doctrbill
09-22-2010 11:21 AM


Re: "Whole Earth"
Hi doc,

doctrbill writes:

Did you even try what I recommended to you?

Yep. But after a 16 hour day some thing can slip by.

doctrbill writes:

After less than one minute of searching "whole earth" I came upon the following. What do you call this?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!" Jer 50:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does that verse support the assertion you made?

doctrbill writes:

2) - The biblical expression "whole earth," or its alternate "all the earth" (same expression in Hebrew - also translated "all the land") is used to describe the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, and the Macedonian Empire. I doubt you imagine those empires to have encompassed our planet. Eh?

doctrbill writes:

In less than two minutes I found this excerpt from a letter written by the king of Babylon:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you." Dan 4:1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does that verse support your assertion?

doctrbill writes:

2) - The biblical expression "whole earth," or its alternate "all the earth" (same expression in Hebrew - also translated "all the land") is used to describe the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, and the Macedonian Empire. I doubt you imagine those empires to have encompassed our planet. Eh?

doctrbill writes:

I gave you Eugene Peterson's name in post #82. I know how time consuming it can be to paste a copied name into a search box but I was hoping that you would do it anyway. Pastor Peterson produced a Bible which has clearly been an influence on you. In message 82 you wrote:

ICANT writes:

Genesis 1:1 is speaking of everything you can see that exists and everything that exists that you can not see.

How can something or someone I did not know existed have any effect on what I believe or not believe?

How can I pharaphrase something that I have never seen?

So why would I look him up?

doctrbill writes:

How odd you didn't care enough to google him after being told that you were paraphrasing his Bible.

Since you peeked my interest I looked up Mr Peterson and his contemporary Bible that was published in 2001.

Something that was written in 2001 could have no effect on what I was teaching since 1969. Unless I was privilaged to somehow to be transported forward in time to read it.

I got what I said from the many years of the study of the Biblical Hebrew and Greek languages.

My take on what Genesis 1:1 says.

In the beginning. There is no possible way to determine when this took place. God is eternal and somewhere in eternity according to this verse He created the universe (heaven as Moses called it)

Our word universe traces its origin back to the Greek word holos
which means all, whole, completely.

The Greek word ouranos used in the LXX means 1)the expanse with all things visible in it. a)the universe, the world.

Thus I conclude that the heaven in Genesis 1:1 was refering to everything that could be seen.

This was a completed universe.

The earth is mentioned as a specific creation so it was brought on line later.

If that is refering to the time it was created in the beginning it would have been much smaller than it is today. God streached out the heavens and they are still expanding today.

Thus I conclude there is probably things out there we can not see as the hubble improvements have proved. I believe there are things still further out that we have not yet seen.

Thus my statement in Message 82

ICANT writes:

Not when Genesis 1:1 is speaking of everything you can see that exists and everything that exists that you can not see.

So no I was not phraphrasing what Mr. Peterson said.

My conclusions on Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the completed Universe.
Sometime during that beginning then God created the Earth.
During this light period (DAY) that had ended at Genesis 1:2 with the evening that ended the first day with the light portion of day two. All the things in Genesis 2:5-4:24 took place in that light period (DAY) as it was declared in Genesis 2:4.

Facts that agree with science:

The Heaven (Universe) had a beginning.
The Earth had a beginning.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by doctrbill, posted 09-22-2010 11:21 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by doctrbill, posted 09-22-2010 5:15 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 93 of 306 (582718)
09-23-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by doctrbill
09-22-2010 5:15 PM


Re: "Whole Earth"
Hi doc,

doctrbill writes:

Besides, you appear to be unwilling to explore it.

What is there to explore?

If you translate erets as earth. Anywhere you go on this planet it is refered to as earth.

If you translate erets as land. Anywhere you go on this planet it is refered to as land.

If you translate erets as dirt. Anywhere you go on this planet it is refered to as dirt.

If you take all the water out of the seas you have anyone of the three that you want to call it.

doctrbill writes:

How do you hold both of those thoughts in your head at the same time? How is it that "a completed universe" has no planet earth? You have written that "The earth...was brought on line later." When I read that I hear you saying, "The universe was complete, but wasn't."

You have never read much I have written have you?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That verse does not say they were created at the same time.

It only says they were created in the beginning.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

That verse says they were created the same day.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

That verse says a light period is day.
It also says that light period including the dark period found in Genesis 1:2 which ended at the next light period was the first day.

So you have a light period that lasted from the beginning until we find darkness in Genesis 1:2.

How long was that light period? I don't know the Bible does not say. Science says it was a long time.

So if that light period lasted for billions of years you had a very long day.

Which would benefit the production of all the bio-mass required to be able to produce the oil, coal, and natural gas that is miles underground.

That would explain why there is no age recorded for Cain or any of his descendants for 7 generations.

So there is nothing to preclude the Universe beginning to exist and then the Earth begin to exist a few billion years. They would still be created in the same day, as there was no night.

Night did not exist until we find it in Genesis 1:2.

doctrbill writes:

Seems to me you are grabbing at linguistic straws while dodging whole bales of scriptural evidence. Seems to me you are desparate to prove that the writer of Genesis was sharing advanced cosmogony with God's chosen people.

I am not grabbing at straws. I am just reading what is wrote in the text whether it is right or wrong.

Why would I be desperate to prove that the writer of Genesis was sharing advanced cosmology with God's chosen people?

So far as I know He has only shared that with a 10 year old boy in 1949. I have never met anyone that believes what I do about the beginning of the Heaven and Earth.

They would not have had a clue as to what he was talking about and could have cared less. They were wandering around in the desert for 40 years while Moses was writing the Torah.

They went out every morning and picked up just enough food to last one day any extra would spoil. On Friday they picked up enough for two days and none spoiled.

They had a cloud over them during the day to keep them cool and a pillar of fire at night to keep them warm.

They had a rock that followed them around in the desert and supplied them with drinking water.

Why would they question anything Moses said?

When they did bad things happened.

doctrbill writes:

Perhaps the most persuasive reason to believe Genesis was NOT intended to reveal advanced knowledge is that its creators and target audience, the Jews, God's chosen people, did not, in 5,000 years of chosen people history, produce a single aspirin or roll of toilet paper with which to amaze us heathen folk.

Are you sure about that?

Since Abraham lived around 2300 BC they still got about 690 years to go to get your 5,000 years in.

I guess the contributions of the following

JEWISH NOBEL WINNERS don't count.

0.2% OF WORLD'S POPULATION (16-19 Million Jews)

Literature (13)
1910 - Heyse, Paul
1927 - Bergson, Henri
1958 - Pasternak, Boris
1966 - Agnon, Yosef Shmuel (Israeli)
1966 - Sachs, Nelly
1976 - Bellow, Saul
1978 - Singer, Bashevis Isaac
1981 - Canetti, Elias
1987 - Brodsky, Joseph
1991 - Gordimer, Nadine
2002 - Kertesz, Imre
2004 - Jelinek, Elfriede
2005 - Pinter, Harold

Chemistry (31)
1905 - Baeyer, Von Adolph
1906 - Moissan, Henri
1910 - Wallach, Otto
1915 - Willstaetter, Richard
1918 - Haber, Fritz
1943 - Hevesy, de Charles George
1961 - Calvin, Melvin
1962 - Perutz, Ferdinand Max
1972 - Stein, Howard William
1972 - Anfinsen, Christian B.
1977 - Prigogine, Ilya
1979 - Brown, Charles Herbert
1980 - Berg, Paul
1980 - Gilbert, Walter
1981 - Hoffmann, Roald
1982 - Klug, Aaron
1985 - Hauptman, A. Albert
1985 - Karle, Jerome
1986 - Herschbach, R. Dudley
1988 - Huber, Robert
1989 - Altman, Sidney
1992 - Marcus, Rudolph
1994 - Olah, George A.
1998 - Kohn, Walter
2000 - Heeger, Alan J.
2004 - Ciechanover, Aaron (Israeli)
2004 - Hershko, Avram (Israeli)
2004 - Rose, Irwin
2006 - Kornberg, Roger. D.
[Update]
2008 - Chalfie, Martin
2009 - Yonath, Ada E. (Israeli)

Economics (26)
1970 - Samuelson, Anthony Paul
1971 - Kuznets, Simon
1972 - Arrow, Joseph Kenneth
1973 - Leontief, Wassily
1975 - Kantorovich, Leonid
1976 - Friedman, Milton
1978 - Simon, A. Herbert
1980 - Klein, Robert Lawrence
1985 - Modigliani, Franco
1987 - Solow, M. Robert
1990 - Markowitz, Harry
1990 - Miller, Merton
1992 - Becker, Gary
1993 - Fogel, Rober
1994 - Selten, Reinhard
1994 - Harsanyi, John C.
1997 - Merton,Robert
1997 - Scholes, Myron S.
2001 - Stiglitz, Joseph E.
2001 - Akerlof, George A.
2002 - Kahneman, Daniel (Israeli)
2005 - Aumann, Robert J. (Israeli)
[Update]
2007 - Hurwicz, Leonid (Oldest person to receive Nobel Prize)
2007 - Maskin, Eric S.
2007 - Myerson, Roger B.
2008 - Krugman, Paul

Physiology or Medicine (53)
1908 - Metchnikoff, Elie
1908 - Erlich, Paul
1914 - Barany, Robert
1922 - Meyerhof, Otto
1930 - Landsteiner, Karl
1931 - Warburg, Otto
1936 - Loewi, Otto
1944 - Erlanger, Joseph
1944 - Gasser, Spencer Herbert
1945 - Chain, Boris Ernst
1946 - Muller, Joseph Hermann
1947 - Cori, Gerty Theresa, Radnitz
1950 - Reichstein, Tadeus
1952 - Waksman, Abraham Selman
1953 - Krebs, Hans
1953 - Lipmann, Fritz Albert
1958 - Lederberg, Joshua
1959 - Kornberg, Arthur
1964 - Bloch, Konrad
1965 - Jacob, Francois
1965 - Lwoff, Andre
1967 - Wald, George
1968 - Nirenberg, W. Marshall
1969 - Luria, Salvador
1970 - Axelrod, Julius
1970 - Katz, Bernard Sir
1972 - Edelman, Maurice Gerald
1975 - Baltimore, David
1975 - Temin, Martin Howard
1976 - Blumberg, S. Baruch
1977 - Schally, Andrew V.
1977 - Yalow, Sussman Rosalyn
1978 - Nathans, Daniel
1980 - Benacerraf, Baruj
1982 - Vane, Sir John
1984 - Milstein, Cesar
1985 - Brown, Stuart Michael
1985 - Goldstein, L. Joseph
1986 - Cohen, Stanley
1986 - Levi-Montalcini, Rita
1988 - Elion, Gertrude
1989 - Varmus, Harold
1992 - Fischer, Edmond
1994 - Rodbell, Martin
1994 - Gilman, Alfred
1997 - Prusiner, Stanley B.
1998 - Furchgott, Robert F.
2000 - Kandel, Eric R.
2000 - Greengard, Paul
2002 - Brenner, Sydney
2002 - Horvitz, H. Robert
2004 - Axel, Richard
2006 - Fire, Andrew Z.

Physics (49)
1907 - Michelson, Abraham Albert
1908 - Lippmann, Gabriel
1921 - Einstein, Albert
1922 - Bohr, Niels
1925 - Franck, James
1925 - Hertz, Gustav
1943 - Stern, Otto
1944 - Rabi, Issac Isidor
1945 - Pauli, Wolfgang
1952 - Bloch, Felix
1954 - Born, Max
1958 - Tamm, Igor
1958 - Frank, Ilya
1959 - Segre, Emilio
1960 - Glaser, A. Donald
1961 - Hofstadter, Robert
1962 - Landau, Davidovich Lev
1963 - Wigner, Eugene P.
1965 - Feynman, Phillips Richard
1965 - Schwinger, Julian
1967 - Bethe, Hans A.
1969 - Gell-Mann, Murray
1971 - Gabor, Dennis
1972 - Cooper, Leon N.
1973 - Josephson, David Brian
1975 - Mottleson, Benjamin
1976 - Richter, Burton
1978 - Penzias, Allan Arno
1979 - Weinberg, Stephen
1979 - Glashow, Sheldon
1981 - Schawlow, Arthur
1987 - Müller, K. Alexander
1988 - Lederman, Leon
1988 - Schwartz, Melvin
1988 - Steinberger, Jack
1990 - Friedman, Jerome
1992 - Charpak, Georges
1995 - Reines, Frederick
1995 - Perl, Martin
1996 - Osheroff, Douglas D.
1996 - Lee, David M
1997 - Cohen-Tannoudji, Claude
2000 - Alferov, Zhores I.
2003 - Abrikosov, Alexei A.
2003 - Ginzburg, Vitaly L.
2004 - Politzer, H. David
2004 - Gross, David J.
2005 - Glauber, Roy J.

Source

172 not counting the 8 that receive the Peace Prize.

I think there is some pretty important people in that list.

When you get the egg off your face you can apoligize to God's chosen people.

Here is a few inventions of God's chosen people.

Levi Strauss, Jeans, 1873
Maurice Levy (1), Lipstick, 1915
Lazlo Biro (1), Ballpoint Pen, 1938
J. Robert Oppenheimer, et al (1), Atomic Bomb, 1945
Edwin Herbert Land (1), Instant Photography, 1947
Denis Gabor (1), Holography, 1948
Peter Carl Goldmark (1), Long Playing Record, 1948
Robert Adler (1), Television Remote Control, 1950
Edward Teller, et al (1), Thermonuclear Bomb, 1952
Paul M. Zoll (2), Defibrillator, 1952 and Cardiac Pacemaker, 1952
Gregory Pincus (1/3), Contraceptives, early 1950s
Charles Ginsburg (1), Videotape, 1950s
Gordon Gould (1/3), Laser, 1958
Stanley N. Cohen (1/2), Genetic Engineering, 1973
Jason Lanier (1), Virtual Reality, 1989

Source

Looks like they did pretty well to me.

But you are correct they did not invent aspirin or toilet paper.

Rolled and perforated toilet paper as we're familiar with today was invented around 1880. Various sources attribute it to the Albany Perforated Wrapping (A.P.W.) Paper Company in 1877, and to the Scott Paper company in 1879 or 1890.

Felix Hoffmann, a German chemist, produced a stable form of acetylsalicylic acid, more commonly known as aspirin, in 1897.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by doctrbill, posted 09-22-2010 5:15 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Nij, posted 09-25-2010 4:37 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 130 by jaywill, posted 10-05-2010 7:13 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 110 of 306 (583227)
09-25-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Nij
09-25-2010 4:37 AM


Re: Special knowledge gained from religious texts
Hi Nij,

My aren't we touchy today.

Nij writes:

The point doctorbill made was that Genesis, amongst most religious stories, is not intended to impart knowledge about the real world;

Here is the statement doctrbill made that I had replied too.

In Message 89 doctrbill said:

doctrbill writes:

Perhaps the most persuasive reason to believe Genesis was NOT intended to reveal advanced knowledge is that its creators and target audience, the Jews, God's chosen people, did not, in 5,000 years of chosen people history, produce a single aspirin or roll of toilet paper with which to amaze us heathen folk. Just like everyone else in the ancient Middle East (and some in the modern Middle East) they used their fingers.

I replied:

Are you sure about that?

Since Abraham lived around 2300 BC they still got about 690 years to go to get your 5,000 years in.

Had doctrbill's statement been:

Perhaps the most persuasive reason to believe Genesis was NOT intended to reveal advanced knowledge is that its creators did not, produce a single aspirin or roll of toilet paper with which to amaze us heathen folk. Just like everyone else in the ancient Middle East (and some in the modern Middle East) they used their fingers.

Then I would not have even given his statement a thought.

But he had t add an anti semetic message when he added:

and target audience, the Jews, God's chosen people, did not, in 5,000 years of chosen people history,

That 5,000 years still has 690 years to go.

So his statement infered that the Jews God's chosen people were a bunch of idiots not capleable of doing or accomplishing anything.

Nij writes:

See how your argument is flawed there?

What argument is flawed.

I made no argument.

I simply posted the names of 172 Jews who were Nobel winners.

I then stated:

ICANT writes:

When you get the egg off your face you can apoligize to God's chosen people.

in Message 93

doctrbill owes God's chosen people the Jews a written apology in this thread.

Regardless of what you think he said or what he meant to say he insulted every Jew that has ever lived or will live for the next 690 years.

Jews he insulted included such men as: Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Max Born, Phillips Richard Feynman, and Jerome Fiedman just to mention a few.

All for the purpose of bashing God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Nij, posted 09-25-2010 4:37 AM Nij has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 117 of 306 (584757)
10-03-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by purpledawn
10-03-2010 5:26 PM


Re: Local Story
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

You have a wider view. They could not understand it as a planetary flood since they didn't know they were on a planet or that more existed than what was known to them as I showed you in the Flat Earth thread with the various maps in Message 471.

Do you mean they thought it looked like my avatar?

Why wouldn't they think it looked that way?

According to Genesis all the dry land was in one place which means it would be sourounded with water.

According to the maps you presented the land mass was in one place at 2500 BC then divided into different locations after the flood which occured around 2345 BC. Your next map is about 1700 years later.

You actually presented evidence that supports the Biblical account of the land mass being in one place and was then divided in the days of Peleg like the Bible says.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2010 5:26 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 6:52 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 121 of 306 (584830)
10-04-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by purpledawn
10-04-2010 6:52 AM


Re: Known World
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

quote:
According to the maps you presented the land mass was in one place at 2500 BC then divided into different locations after the flood which occured around 2345 BC. Your next map is about 1700 years later.
You actually presented evidence that supports the Biblical account of the land mass being in one place and was then divided in the days of Peleg like the Bible says.
No it doesn't. All they show is the land known to man at the time.

Babylon was the center of their "world". They mapped their region, not the planet.

As more is discovered or known, the maps changed.

In Message 471 you presented this map The Babylonian map of 2500 BCE. Flat disk encircled by water.

It is the same map you are presenting now from Wikipedia it is dated at 600 BC. Which is correct?

How did they know the land mass was surounded by water unless they could go all the way around the land mass?

That agrees with the description given in Genesis:

1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

The later maps shows the land separated.

That is what we observe today.

Science does agree that at one time all the land mass was in one place.

I know there is a supposed time problem but that does not change the facts.

The land was in one place at one time and was then divided to what we see today.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 6:52 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 1:00 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 125 of 306 (584881)
10-04-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by purpledawn
10-04-2010 1:00 PM


Re: Known World
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

This thread is about the meaning of the words eretz and adamah.

Is that a warning that I am off topic?

In Message 1 said:

Doctbill writes:

So ... Bring me your arguments (which I expect to refute) and I will show you reason to believe that EARTH IS NOT A PLANET.

So nothing we have discussed is on topic.

purpledawn writes:

What's your point?

My point is that the Earth existed whether it was visible as dry land or land covered by water.

The early map shows that those people knew they were surrounded by salt water.

The later maps you presented shows that those people knew the land mass was not all in one place surrounded by salt water.

You can interpert the evidence any way you desire too.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 1:00 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2010 2:20 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 10-04-2010 2:37 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
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