Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus's Prophecy Of His Gospel
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 67 (62859)
10-25-2003 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Rei
10-25-2003 9:19 PM


Oh no, Quiz... don't start denoting quotes with color like Joralex Quote blocks are designed for quotes. It makes it confusing when different people choose their own methods to do quotes.
I know I know I know I know... heh, Just LIKE the way he does it..
j/k. I dunno I am just trying different things out.
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Rei, posted 10-25-2003 9:19 PM Rei has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 67 (62861)
10-26-2003 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 11:19 PM


quote:
Well, I see you've already made up your mind as to the answer to your questions. So why did you put it in the form of a question anyhow? Do you want me to answer or are you going to stick with the answers you seem to have already convinced yourself of?
Sure, I want you to answer.
All I can do is mirror back to you the impression of yourself that you provide to me through your posts.
So far, it seems to me that you believe the Bible first, then interpret away any difficulties in the prophecies.
It does not seem to me that you took a look at the prophecies, did a bunch of research looking for both supportive evidence and evidence which would falsify the prophecy, then decided that the Bible must be true because the prophecies all survived this inquiry.
Certainly you have said that the reason you have the faith you do is because of the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, but have you really looked for disconfirming evidence? One can never be sure that one's own bias of wanting certain things to be true isn't interfering with a rational investigation of the facts. Therefore, actively looking for evidence that refutes what one wishes were true is a good thing to do when trying to find the truth about something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 11:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 48 of 67 (62862)
10-26-2003 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 11:28 PM


quote:
Get yourself a pencil and paper and write down all the items I've itemized in this thread as to fulfillment and there, you have the supernatural. I've already explained as to how these are unusual and unique as required by true prophecy. I've not going to itemize them again for you personally. Your mind seems to be biasly set, so why waste my time?
Sorry, you weren't convincing, considering you had no substantive responses to any of the rebuttals to your claims thus far.
I was hoping for something a bit more concrete and a LOT less vague.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 11:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 49 of 67 (62863)
10-26-2003 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Quiz
10-25-2003 11:54 PM


quote:
I even agree with a form of evolution, not micro-evolution only macro-evolution. I believe what is behind macro-evolution is God, I dont believe he created things from nothing eather I believe he created things as we do.
So, what other scientifically supported concepts other than modern Biology and Genetics do you choose to discard based upon your religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Quiz, posted 10-25-2003 11:54 PM Quiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 2:43 AM nator has replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 67 (62869)
10-26-2003 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
10-26-2003 1:28 AM


So, what other scientifically supported concepts other than modern Biology and Genetics do you choose to discard based upon your religion?
I disagree with evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 10-26-2003 1:28 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 10-26-2003 2:49 AM Quiz has replied
 Message 54 by nator, posted 10-26-2003 6:23 AM Quiz has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 67 (62870)
10-26-2003 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Quiz
10-26-2003 2:43 AM


I disagree with evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies
So, what would you say to these observed instances of new species arising through relatively small genetic variations?
Observed Instances of Speciation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 2:43 AM Quiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 4:58 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 67 (62872)
10-26-2003 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
10-26-2003 2:49 AM


This looks like micro-evolution. This is possible; it is small geneitic alterations. I got them mixed up by accident. let me restate that answer. "I dont agree with evolution which "matter comes from non living-matter" I also dont agree with MACRO evolution. Thats what I ment. Sorry.
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 10-26-2003 2:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by AdminBrian, posted 10-26-2003 5:02 AM Quiz has not replied
 Message 55 by nator, posted 10-26-2003 6:25 AM Quiz has not replied

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 67 (62873)
10-26-2003 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Quiz
10-26-2003 4:58 AM


TOPIC DRIFT
Can we keep this specifically to Jesus' prophecy of his gospel. There are already upteen threads discussing evolution.
AdminBrian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 4:58 AM Quiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 54 of 67 (62875)
10-26-2003 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Quiz
10-26-2003 2:43 AM


quote:
I disagree with evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies
...based upon what scientific evidence do you believe this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 2:43 AM Quiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 55 of 67 (62876)
10-26-2003 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Quiz
10-26-2003 4:58 AM


quote:
This looks like micro-evolution. This is possible; it is small geneitic alterations. I got them mixed up by accident. let me restate that answer. "I dont agree with evolution which "matter comes from non living-matter" I also dont agree with MACRO evolution. Thats what I ment. Sorry.
Quiz, I will answer your post in a new topic which I will start in the "Evolution" forum.
Please come see it there!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Quiz, posted 10-26-2003 4:58 AM Quiz has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 56 of 67 (62886)
10-26-2003 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Quiz
10-25-2003 5:55 PM


quote:
...I didn't start with faith but with science and history. When I found that science was incorrect I moved unto history and started looking through the religons and then I found many which only one had good ground.
The fact is that the LDS church is based not on true history but on a nineteenth centure fabrication falsely claimed to be a miraculous translation of an ancient document (The Book of Mormon)
So basically you are claiming that you rejected science and history wihtout even the motivation of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Quiz, posted 10-25-2003 5:55 PM Quiz has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 67 (62900)
10-26-2003 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-23-2003 1:12 AM


Hello buzsaw,
quote:
Originally posted by buzsaw
So folks now, here we are with the prophecy pretty much fulfilled. . .
Your original post proclaimed amazing and incontrovertible prophecies "fulfilled to a 'T'".
Yet, even you, in your first post, retreated to the phrase "practical purposes" regarding the "times of the Gentiles".
It seems reasonably clear then that the "times of the Gentiles" were not fulfilled in 1967 and thus, the six-day war was not the fulfillment of Luke 21:24 as you originally proclaimed.
Therefore, the most generous concession that can be made regarding this "prophecy" is that it remains to be seen whether or not it will be fulfilled.
As to the "prophecy" that the gospel will be preached to the entire inhabited earth, it has already been pointed out that this is a self-dependent statement analogous to the anthropic principle (i.e., the prophecy remains extant if/and only if the religion survives).
As to fulfillment of this prophecy, your own equivocation (i.e. "pretty much fulfilled") admits that this has not happened. Therefore, it not only remains to be seen whether or not this "prophecy" will be fulfilled, but more importantly, it also remains to be seen whether or not any of the attendant consequences occur if/and when the gospel ever is "preached to all the world".
So, in contrast to your original proclamation of incontrovertible and amazing prophecies fulfilled to a "T", what we have actually been presented with so far are two rather ambiguous statements, neither of which can be demonstrated to have been "fulfilled".
If then, there is such a plethora of astounding prophecy fulfillment on which you base your faith, why are you experiencing such difficulty in presenting one?
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2003 1:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 67 (63081)
10-27-2003 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Silent H
10-25-2003 6:59 PM


quote:
The question to buz, and if you want to address it please do, is...
In a world filled with supernatural prophets, and many Gods, what properties do you use to judge false prophecy from true prophecy?
1. The false prophet often plagerizes prophecy from the Bible, with enough doctoring to make it sound original.
2. Is the prophecy something that would require a supernatural fulfillment by being rendered unpredictable when given.
3. Does the prophet have a consistent record of fulfilled prophecy?
4. For Biblical prophets, does the prophecy contradict other scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 10-25-2003 6:59 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 10-28-2003 5:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 59 of 67 (63154)
10-28-2003 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
10-27-2003 11:07 PM


buzsaw writes:
1. The false prophet often plagerizes prophecy from the Bible, with enough doctoring to make it sound original.
While this is certainly an okay criteria, I think it should be generalized to anyone making predictions based on points of common knowledge, or on popular predictions which are believed to be a reliable source. (We can disagree as to whether the Bible is actually a reliable source of prediction, but it is certainly popularly believed to be)
buzsaw writes:
2. Is the prophecy something that would require a supernatural fulfillment by being rendered unpredictable when given.
I think I agree with this as well... but I would like clarification first, maybe an example.
buzsaw writes:
3. Does the prophet have a consistent record of fulfilled prophecy?
This is also okay, but requires that the "fulfilled prophecies" fit the other criteria.
buzsaw writes:
4. For Biblical prophets, does the prophecy contradict other scripture?
I'm not exactly sure how this can be implemented. I do not want to reraise the "generation" problem here, but will point out that its possible contradiction was smoothed over by using the demands of other prophecy to force a new definition upon it, rather than to negate the prophecy itself.
Now, I will present a couple of my own and ask why they are not important...
5) The inability of the target, or minions of the prophet, to make the prophecy come true.
I think you'd agree with me if some corner soothsayer predicts mr X Y and Z will eat ice cream the next seven Saturdays, and they indeed do so, is NOT grounds for believing a prophecy has been fulfilled.
6) Coherence, constraint of prophetical vision.
Anyone can predict the future of another person's life pretty easily, if allowed free reign with regards to symbolism and spacing of "markers." For example a soothsayer tells someone that they will first see a bird, then someone will spill something, then the person will fall ill.
These are all events which will likely happen at some point. If the prophecy allows for coherent fluctuations (such as the bird may just be a picture of a bird), or no temporal constraint (these events are not within a very very short time period), the prophecy would essentially be meaningless.
There may be others, but right now these two points have been mentioned, and I think they are value added constraints, particularly given your point #3. Without these, your #3 makes many dimestore oracles quite the wonder.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2003 11:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 10-31-2003 9:53 PM Silent H has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 67 (63748)
10-31-2003 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Silent H
10-28-2003 5:05 PM


quote:
I think I agree with this as well... but I would like clarification first, maybe an example.
Jesus's prophesies of several of the events in his Olivet Discourse were good examples such as the Gentiles occupying Jerusalem and then being booted in the end times coupled with his gospel will also be preached to all nations coupled with the budding of the fig tree, etc are a good example. Note that I said they should be unpredictable, not impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 10-28-2003 5:05 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Rei, posted 10-31-2003 10:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 63 by Silent H, posted 11-01-2003 11:39 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024