Gnostic timeline reversed?

What came first, Christian Gnostacism, or Christian literalists? The church today would tell you that Gnostic ideas were a later shoot off of the fundamental Christian ideas. But what if gnosticism came first, a deeper understanding of the symbolism of the nt texts, and the canic gospels were chosen because the literalists used their view to control the masses? This is not a new idea, the belief that Jesus didn't actually exist and was based on a pegan god got famous a few years ago (1999 I think) and has since been publicized in things like the DaVinci code. Anyway, my question to someone far more knowledgable then myself is; were gnostic gospels excluded from the NT based on the gnostic ideas alone? How do they date compared to the canic texts? And finally, what are your thoughts on the pegan/christ parallels?
Sorry for spelling mistakes, I'm in a hurry!
Brad

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I have read somewhere that Paul may have been a gnostic. As far as Jesus being based on pagan traditions, I have heard that Dionysus was half man half god. Dionysus was born of a virgin. He used wine in ceremony. He was put to death on a cross, he came back from the dead. Could it be possible that gnostics were absorbed and assimulated by the early church and over time the newer Christian movement replaced gnosticism. Like Sataria incorporates Catholicism and Voodoo. Anyway anyone who did not come into the fold was excumunicated and burned as a heretic, as were any pagan books that the church deemed heresy. It's ironic that many of the pagan traditions survived as christian holidays.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Dionysus was also born on Dec. 25th, in a cave, there were three magi there, they braught him gold, mir, and frankensense. But my question pertained to the dates of the writing of the gnostics. It seems more and more like the early church does what it has continued to do best, and that is convert people by assimilating their beliefs. Did they also take the man-god idea, and forget that it was stolen?
Brad

Well, Dionysus was killed in several ways depending on which story you read. Tortured and dismembered by the Titans. I can not find where he was cruxified, just a fact check on myself. There are some that contend that virgin birth storys were common in ancient mythologies contemporary with the early church. It is possible that even the gnostics took on the story of Dionysus and Helanized christians most likely converted along with the pagan traditions. Blasphemy I know. It is just a theory. But I do not know dates, all I have ever heard or read was that the traditions of the gnostics predate the Catholic church but were also possibly contermporary as well. As far as assimulated your guess is good as mine, I do not know.This message has been edited by 1.61803, 10-19-2004 11:30 PM

Just curious where you got that tid bit?

From the book "The Jesus mysteryies: was the "original jesus" a pagan god?" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. An excerpt of some of the similarities between pagan gods and Christ that are found in the book:God made fleshm the savior and "son of God."Father is god, and mother a mortal virgin.Born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25th before three shepards or magi.Offers his believers to be born again by rites of baptism.Miraculously turns water to wine at a marraige ceremony.Rides on a donky while people wave palm leaves to honor him.Dies at easter as a sacrafice of the sins of the world.After he is killed he is raised on the third day.His followers await his return as the judge in the Last Days.His death is celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine symbolizing his body and blood.However the above is a combination of things attributed to EITHER Osiris, or Dionysus. One egyptian, and one greek god. As for the gifts that the magi braught, I can't seem to find it at this time, I'll keep looking, and I'll also look for the author's source for the above facts!
Brad

p.s. I KNOW I SPELLED BROUGHT INCORRECTLY...and I did it again in the last post. I always, ever since I was little spell that word wrong, and unless I proofread I never catch it. damn.

I don't find dates but here is an excerpt from: A History of Christianity, by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

The conclusion of the Jesus mysteries is basically that jesus is just a jewish version of the pagan stories to come before him, nothing more then a modern adaptation. I guess it can be likened to Neo in the movie The Matrix, just a modern adaptation of the same old stories. The question then seems to be, how did this particular story become taken as fact, as opposed to the rest that were always known to be legend.Also interesting to note, several contemporary writers at the time seem to have had harsh criticism of early christianity, calling it a poor immitation of the religions before.Why did Christianity take hold in the way it did? Perhaps Brian could offer some insight, as he has seemed knowledgable on such issues before.
Brad

actually, i'm pretty sure the gnostic traditions pre-date most biblical texts.for instance, the gospel of thomas (which may or may not actually be a gnostic gospel) is the oldest gospel we currently have.

Where did you get the date for Thomas? I have always been told the earliest copy was dated about AD 120, where the last canic text said to be written was in AD 90...maybe I'm wrong? I find this very interesting, anyone else?
Brad

From what I learned in my philsophy class, Dionysus and Christ didn't have this many similarities.........besides, it's a moot point, because the Dionysus cult might have just been an off-shoot of Christianty.

Doubtful. For starters, NONE of the church fathers were Gnostics.......and the Gnostics were considered heretics by all of the church fathers. So, if the FOUNDERS of the religion weren't Gnostics, I think it's safe to say that Biblical theology predates Gnosticism.Also, the Catholic church was founded in order to combine Christianty and Paganism.......so why wouldn't the already formed fusions of Christianity with Paganism, such as Gnosticism, been embrassed if it was the form if Christianty that most early Christians adhered to? The obvious answer is that most early Christians did NOT adhere to Gnosticism, and so the Rome abolished Gnosticism in order to make its union with Christianity more agreeable to Christians.

This is incorrect, to my knowledge........the epistles are the oldest New Testament texts, and they predate every gospel and are possibly as old as just four years after the crucifixtion.As far as the Gospel of Thomas, I don't recall their being anything in it which makes it a blatantly Gnostic text......"split a piece of wood, and I am there" and other such things could be interpretted in different ways. Also, I've heard no proof that the Gospel of Thomas is even particularly old.