I now realize that people can be quite blind to their own statements.
So true. Statements like:
...it would be a paradox if it was impossible to do something wrong
Yet god can do no wrong, because everything God does, is by deffinition right. So God is a paroadox.
What does oposits have to do with anything? God created evil, plain and simple, it couldent have pre-existed god, because god was the begining, allways was, etc.
So evil had to be created by god.
So my point still stands, a good God, created Evil.
Thank you Yaro, for confirming my argument. I was simply explaining why such a thing would be necessary, or even to our benefit. For example, knowing we took the right course, when there was a potential wrong course.
HAHAHAHAH! Why set out a wrong cource in the first place?
God could have saved some time, if he made everything good.
I also explained how although God created potential evil, it wasn't his intentions for evil to be chosen.
Huh? Why create it in the first place?
Would you set out a picknick table, invite your whole family, set out a pitcher of Lemonade and a pitcher of Hydracloric Acid, then chastise the person who drank the acid by saying:
"I didn't mean for you to drink it! I just put it there to be an oposit to lemonade. Duh"
Robot, Sorry I didn't mean to set the tone to something mean. I was really being rather light hearted about the whole thing, after all ya started it by calling me blind
In any case, stay tuned... I'll give you a point by point Serious reply. Then we can progress in our discussion.. Give me.. oh, say 10 15 minutes from the time of this post.
I now realize that people can be quite blind to their own statements. In the world (Universe I guess you could say) in which we live, people are very aware of the fact of opposites. For example, the opposite of up is down, the opposite of go is stop, the opposite of good is bad, the opposite of hot is cold (to some degree , the opposite of love is hate, the opposite of wet is dry, the opposite of envy is contentment ... the list goes on.
Well, I disagree entirely. The 'fact' of 'opesits' is not a fact at all. An opesit is a human construct, it is not a physical reality. Like all things in the world there is a fine gradation.
For example, up and down. Up and down are relative to where you are. If you were in space, up and down don't really exist. Those are relative coordinates based on two points. There isn't really one up in Space. The idea of them being absolute oposits, is a purely human one.
Likewise we can see this in good and evil. Good and evil are not absolute opsits. There are many fine gradations of goods and evils. and at times a choice often considered evil may in fact be good. Lying to someone to save a friend, or killing someone who would kill your children etc.
In fact, good and evil are like up and down. They are human ideas based on relative positions or situations. In the end oposits don't exist but in the human mind.
It are these things, that keep the world in a balance you could say.
How do these things? (What things? Oposits?) Keep the world in balance?
If anything, it seems that relationships between relative forces keep the world spinning round and doing it's thing.
What would our world be like if it was impossible to not like something or someone. Or what if EVERYTHING you did was good, even if it was bad.
How could you do something bad if everything you did was good? this dosn't make sense. Don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand it.
It really is a paradox in itself.
Yes quite!
When you think about it, its a complex system of running things, one that is designed perfectly. The tiniest switch around, and who knows. The fabric of society, perhaps even the fabric of the Universe would fall apart.
Im losing you here. How do oposits keep society and the universe working? Heck, how does good and evil do it?
I can see a case for 'Oposit' forces affecting the universe, but how the heck does good and evil do it? Why does society need evil?
So yes, these things are all available to us. But humans have made the right decisions, as of yet, as to shunning the wrong for the most part, and going with the good.
Can you define what is wrong and what is good?
When they've done otherwise, the consequences were only disastrious.
Example, please, at this point I am not sure what you are talking about at all. Choosing evil over good? How does this apply to the question "Why did god make evil." So we could have the ability to wreak disaster?
God wants us to make the right decisions. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to make the wrong decisions. As I stated before, it would be a paradox if it was impossible to do something wrong.
Why is it a paradox? God can do whatever he wants. He makes the universe, he can set the rules. God can make it NOT a paradox
Heck, how about god just give us a definition of good and evil in the first place. What is absolutely good, and what is absolutely evil?
So yes, I suppose God created the possibility to do wrong. But He didn't want people to accept that, as it can only lead to our detriment.
I know you don't like it, but what about that Lemonade anology. If you are god, why on earth would you make WRONG in the first place?
You have yet to give a deffinition of Right and Wrong, or more importantly, show how it is necissary. Why can earth not be utopia?
The Bible does state though, that we were made as relatively perfect humans. Therefore, doing the right thing wouldn't be a challenge as long as we wanted to.
So god made us, then put down all the hurdles and bad stuff to see if we screw up? Lemonade analogy. I don't get it?
But because of the balance required, that didn't mean it would be impossible.
You have not shown a verse that says this balance is required, nor have you made a single statement that proves that we need Evil. Can you show why we NEED EVIL?
Probably one of the most powerful agents, envy, cause Satan to rebel against God. But it only took one spirit to open the box that should have remained forever enclosed. And by that I mean 2 things. 1) Him choosing the wrong course caused Adam to sin, therefore taking away relative perfection and making it much much easier to take the wrong course. 2) Satan would now be able to influence people even MORE into taking the wrong course.
Right. God made Satan knowing he was bad, gonna rebel, tempt adam, bring evil into the world, have people thrown in hell etc. He knew all this crap aeons ago. So why he go thrugh with it? Couldn't he have saved us all a heap of truble by not makeing the bad stuff to begin with.
So I know I've sorta been rambling, and haven't put this together very well, but here's a sum up. Evil is a POSSIBILITY, just one of the many things that keep the world balanced.
A point you have faild to prove. You state yourself that evil has only served to throw society out of balance. What's the use of evil? Why does the world neceistate an oposit?
A Mobeius Strip has one side, why cant the good/evil coin eh?
Yes, God did create this Possibility,
No, he created evil. Period. he invented it, and let it loose. He knew satan was coming, and what he was gonna do, he let it happen. He created evil.
but the actions of one, caused the whole thing to get way out of control.
Exactly. he created evil...
And in closing, God wants us to serve him out of our own desires and will. If it was only possible to do right, we wouldn't be able to show anything.
So basically God is gambling with us. He set the Acid and lemonade on the table, and is placing bets on who drinks the acid. Nice.
Everything would be out of whack... Man this topic is sorta confusing, but I hope your catching my drift. The way it is, is just the right way. If it were any other way, I'd have more reason not to believe in a God. Why am I even having to say this?
Ya, what are you saying? No offence, Im really curious how you arive at your belife, that Evil is a necissary component to the universe.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]
God knew what humans would do. It is not as if He slapped His Almighty Forehead and exclaimed, "Oh No! They ate the forbidden fruit! Now What am I gonna do?" If you had ONLY lenonaide at your stand, folks just would not have a choice. The issue is the choice.
I see the issue as wasting time. I mean, he knew what was gonna happen, he knew how it was all gonna play out. Why on earth did he bother?
It was a setup, eve had no choice. It was all part of gods plan.
Ya but that brings us back to the wole thing of why is bad necissary?
If it's just choice, why does the other choice have to be bad? That seems like an arbitrary decision if you ask me. After all, couldent god make it a choice between good and okay?
Why does god need this choice in the first place? He knows how it's gonna work out. He knew what satan was gonna do etc. There really wasn't a choice. In fact it was all part of gods 'plan'. How is this choice?
EDIT:
Also, God INVENTED Bad. Bad dosn't have to exist. God decided to invent Bad, as well as the horibble results of it. As well as the punishments for it. He didn't have to make things that way.
God could have simply made it so that BAD didn't exist. Thus, the choice would be unecisary, bad dosn't exist.
Its like saying a choice between good and foozle, foozle dosn't exist. Get it?
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]
Maybe your church teaches diffrent. It was my undertanding that the fall was part of gods plan.
So then you believe in fate? I believe in a God who lets us make our own choices, whether or not he knows how its going to work out.
How is your belife any different than fate. You may have a choice, but the choice you make and the outcome of it are already pre-known. Thus, you never really did have a choice, mearly an illusion of it.
Like a movie for example, you seen the thing a hundred times. Now, in the characters world, they have tons of choices, but in reality they really don't. You already know whats gonna happen to them, and how it all works out.
He may or may not choose to look into the future and see how things are going to go. For all we know, He may not. But even if He did, it would only mean we had no choices if He made sure nothing bad happened.
Huh? This makes no sense, bad or good, he already knew what was gonna happen. Wether he chooses to 'pretend' he dosn't or not. It's god we are dealing with here.
He knew from the get go how this was all gonna turn out. There is no choice from gods perspective.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]
No, I don't get it. And I don't think you get it either. And plus, I really don't think "simply" is involved here. Let's go with your foozle thing for a second. Ahh lets not. It makes no sense. Answer my questions! LOL
It makes sense.
God can make the universe anyway he wants right? He sets the rules, he makes up how it works.
Evil exists only by virtue of god. He invented the stuff, after all he is god.
So it was gods choice to invent evil. He could have made it something else, it didn't have to be evil, or have the consequences it does.
So when I said god could have simply made evil not exist in the first place, It makes perfect sense. He wanted it to exist, for whatever reasen. He made us to succomb to it. And now he punishes us for it.
He could have made it anyway he wanted, instead he chose to play spiritual pinball with us humans. Meh... seems kinda sadistic to me.
OK Yaro...lets run with this for a minute. Your basic statement is that God knew what would happen, which I agree with..since He knows everything. He created evil, however, is a bit more complex.
How is it more complex? At some point god laid out the ground rules for how morality was gonna function. At some point he said to himself "ok, there is gonna be this stuff calld good, and this other stuff calld evil. And Im gonna make this dude who will betray me and ultimetly lead thousands of my creations to hell. All because I created evil. Hmmmm... sounds like fun!"
It's god we are talking about here. He has unlimited choices. He could have designed the universe an infinite amount of different ways, yet he chose to create good and evil.
System of choices or not, evil is in this world by virture of the god who designed it. And if it's god we are talking about, then the choice was wholy arbitrary to begin with.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]
Yaro--we are back to square one. All right, if you claim that God created evil you are correct. We chose it, however. Why did He make it in the first place? Well to begin with, we cannot fathom His wisdom or His motives. If He were a "bad" God, there would not be much that we could do about it. Most anecdotal evidence points to Him as a God who "so loves the world" and who "cannot lie." There is one reason why the alternate vibe was created. What would a lie even be were it not permitted?
So evil and suffering were created to be a contrast to good? God created murder, famin, death, suffering, desise, all to be a contrast to stuff that was nice?
Hmmmm.... this brings me to another point. God is creating the universe, he invented all the stuff he dosn't like. When you think about it god created sin, lies, murder, lust, stealing, etc. etc. etc.
Those are his inventions. He made them up cuz he wanted them to exist. And yet he hates those things...
The only reason you offer as to why he did this is to test us and see what choice we make. Yet, this God already knows the outcome.
I think you agree with all of the above, so we are on the same foot here. Now my question becomes simply: why?
Dosn't it seem arbitray to you? God was board so he made this whole universe, set up all these arbitrary rules, etc. etc. And yet the whole time he knew how it was all gonna work out anyway.
He creates people, brings them into the world, and already knows before they are born weather or not they are going to hell. I suppose in our minds we have a choice, but in a suppernatural sense we really don't. God already knows what we are going to do.
Basically we have a being who arbitreraly created a world, with arbitray rules, whos fate he has already predetermined aons ago. Heck, god himself created the outcome of the universe when he created it, he knew how it was going to work out,....
Wow! im getting dizzy..
Sorry for rambling. But this is all beginning to smack of predestination and fate. I don't see how you can avoid that.
You make these statements, I guess for not one second thinking about how this would at all be possible. What does evil not existing involve? This question correlates with my original two questions which you have failed to answer. I guess in your mind, your thinking of a fairy tale world, where it's impossible to do certain things, or control your own actions and thoughts.
Maybe you are misunderstanding me. It's not necessarily that you wouldn't have choices, or that everything would be right, it would simply mean that evil and suffering wouldn't exist, period.
Both concepts, good and evil would be non-existent. Sort of like what God supposedly had in the garden. Innocent folk, with no knowledge of good and evil.
You following me?
If god didn't invent the stuff in the first place (the tree), or at least kept it out of reach, there would be no problems. As I understand it, god was quite happy with the way things were going in that garden. I believe most Christian doctrine stresses that Eden was our intended state.
But I seriously think it's impossible, if you want to have a well working system.
Certainly it wasn't. The garden of eden was a perfect example.
Perhaps that's why you have avoided those questions.
I haven't avoided your question. I'm saying your question doesn't fit what I am asking. I was speaking of absolute non-existence of evil. An infinitely powerful God has infinite options, his system could have functioned in a million different ways, yet he chose this good/evil business.
There is no such thing as an impossibility to God. Are you saying god COULDN'T have devised a system that doesn't include the suffering of his creations? If so, this god is not all powerful.
Yes, with God all things are possible. He could have made a Universe where everything you did was right, and evil didn't exist.
Ok, why didn't he?
But if you delve into this statement just a tad further, you will see that it just doesn't work.
But your argument is that it doesn't work in the current system we have. Of course not! Good and Evil are the rules in this system, God made them up. Your reasoning is circular, you are saying:
"God created good and evil to sustain our current system. So he couldn't have not created evil or we wouldn't have our current system."
I'm saying god can create any system. He is God, any option is open to him, and he is bound by no rules himself. Thus he can make a universe were people don't suffer, choices can be made, and evil actions, or evil for that matter are non-existent.
Sure it may be hard for us to imagine such a world, but that doesn't mean god can't do it. Sure he could!
So by implication, we have a god who chose this world, were unspeakable things happen to good people all the time.
Like you said, everythings relative. A world with evil, may not be all that bad of a thing. Therefore, God creating evil, may not consist of what you imagine. Maybe it just involves a Universe, where people are bound by their own actions, to either do the right, or the wrong.
But in a relative universe there is no absolute right and wrong. I think things in this universe are simply bound to their actions, period. It is society that imposes right or wrong values on them.
If the wrong isn't there, they have nothing to choose. If either isn't there, and everything is in our head, then what are we blaming God for?
Hey, I don't really believe in a god anyway, so I don't blame him. I am supposing for the purpose of argument that he does exist. I think Good and Evil are human constructs. I think this universe is held together by moraly neutral relationships between various forces.
Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future.
Are you sure these things aren't just processes of nature? After all disease is usually caused by very small organisms. Their just trying to get by. They prey on other living things just as everything else in this world.
Famine, just happens, death happens, etc. These are bad things. They are not necessarily linked to peoples behavior or actions, they just happen. Earthquakes, and AIDS aren't the result of angry gods, they are the results of an indifferent universe and it's interrelated, morally neutral, forces.
However, the evils I thought we were debating over, concern evil ACTIONS of others. These are things that simply have to be available. Otherwise, everything you did would be right. Which we realize can not possibly be the case.
Well, it is my belife that the evil actions of others are subjective. Some folks would consider abortion evil for example, yet others would see it as a necessary human right (please lets not get into an argument about this it is only an example). Some societies don't see drugs as much of a problem, while others, like ours, sees them as evils tantamount to murder. Some view the war our country is involved in as an atrocity, others see it as a righteous act etc.
It is societies that create the idea of evil and good, not gods.
He did create these things, but once again, these are things that have to be available to us in order to have a working world.
They didn't exist in the garden. And again, this rests on the assumption that God, in all his power, is not capable of creating a 'working world' any other way.
There's more to this statement than you may think. Let's say God made it so stealing didn't exist. Would this mean that taking something from someone else was mighty fine?
Why not? Some societies on earth had no concept of property. Some native american tribes shared everything between their members and the idea of ownership was a very loose term. Stealing was virtually non-existent in this situation. In those societies, stealing and property weren't a necessity, so why does ours need to have it?
Or maybe the world you invision, consists of no items to take away from others, or no people to do the taking. Doesn't sound like much of a world to me. Think... before... u make me say these things.
Sounds like a great world to me actually The Indians had a great life until the Europeans came by with all their manifest destiny etc.
So your saying that stabbing someone in the chest with a pocket knife, might not have to be evil after all. It could be a gesture to show how much you love that person. But now, you have not only violated the laws of science, and corrupted a working human system, but you have made a pretty bad carpet and shirt stain.
While your example may be far fetched, there are some situations where murder may indeed be a show of respect and affection. Euthanasia for example.
If a loved one were dying of a horrible disease, and his days were spent in constant agony. I would probably consider it. In some countries it is legal. Even in ours under some extreme consequences like brain death etc.
Consider the ancient Japanese. Ritual suicide and the value of honorable death was a huge part of their culture. In many cases it was a severe disrespect to deny someone a traditional suicide ritual.
Here murder was embraced as an aspect of the culture. It may sound horrible to us, but to them it was the only right way for things to be.
And once again, the real problem with this is that we have a situation where every action is a good one.
How about we step in to reality, and admit that there is no such thing as good or bad actions. All actions are measured by the standard of the society which performs them.
People would be limited to always making the right choice, thereby, taking away free will and basically turning us into mindless robots. Sounds good to me.
Nope, not mindless robots. Just different.
Again, if there is a god, he could blow through your last statement snap his fingers and make it work. To say that couldn't make it any other way would be imposing limits on his power.
If you were to look into the future, and see that something was to happen, would that mean that a series of events would not have led up to that happening? Just because you could look into the future, would that mean that series of events was out of the control of everyone but yourself? The answer is no.
God made the universe. He was the main catalyst for all events. Not only that, but he was fully aware of all the repercussions, results, and final outcomes of what he created, so the answer is YES, he must have been in full control. He is god, if he exists, he knew how the dominoes were gonna fall, after all, he laid them out.
He knew that Joe Shmo who lived in 1956 was gonna die of a heart attack and go to hell, eons ago before earth even existed. He knew me and you were gonna have this debate way back in the dawn of time.
Before he said let there be light, he already knew Adam was gonna eat the apple, and that billions would end up in a lake of fire because he decided to lay out some arbitrary rules for undisclosed reasons. So yes he is responsible for it all.
But seriously, if you would like to explain more in depth as to how a world without murder, lies, stealing... would be possible, be my guest.
Don't ask me robo, ask god. He can do anything. Are you saying he couldn't make a world like that? Are you saying god is bound by rules outside of his control?
I would enjoy reading your thoughts as to that matter. But THIS is the core of your argument, and you have yet to prove this in any way.
My argument is already proven. It is based on the assumption that god is all powerful.
If you want proof that Good and Evil are human inventions imposed on the world by society, see my examples of variant moralities above.
Now could you explain how god would find such an ideal world impossible to create?
Could you explain how the being that set the first domino in motion, with a full understanding of every little detail that was about to transpire, doesn't contradict free will, thereby contradicting the perceived choice between good and evil?
Seems to me your gonna have an awful hard time proving that.
Wow crashfrog, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I am quite surprized. If only Yaro had gotten it that easily...
Huh? How is this different from what I said?
I said free will was an illusion, like a movie. The characters in the movie hav free will, yet you know how the movie is gonna end. So really, free will only exists from their perspective.
My point was clear, free will dosn't really exist from gods perspective. Read my post before last.
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The Indians had a great life until the Europeans came by with all their manifest destiny etc.