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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 591 (80581)
01-24-2004 11:59 PM


The fact of Jesus and Satan is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?
1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them.
3) People who practiced and studied occult and ancient mystery religions would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over supernatural reality. They would consider it all an exercise in intellectual mystic states of achievement.
4) Many would call themselves Christians who were not.
5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.
6) Jesus would love all of us...buffoon and bartender, professor and psychotic.
7) Satan would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone!
8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]


Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-26-2004 9:41 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 01-26-2004 10:30 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 99 by Dilyias, posted 02-09-2004 2:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 591 (80653)
01-25-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ConsequentAtheist
01-25-2004 9:11 AM


Truth or Consequent
While I may be so polite as to join you in the observer status concerning thisquestion, I must point out to you that we have no business in proclaiming gullibility as an issue IF the "what if" were true. If human behavior is any barometer of a spiritual conflict within human nature which "could" exist, one of the benchmarks of empathy vs arrogance is intellectual disdain. Please keep an open mind on the possibility of such a supernatural infusion for the sake of this topic.
Tell me, Consequent: What IF you were in error and these supernatural myths were actually true? Would you go to a Psychiatrist..hoping to find solace in a human expert? Would you submit yourself to the "good guy" aka Jesus so that you would be safe?
Or would you laugh and respond to my post with something like "OK What if I won the Lottery? What if the Easter Bunny were real? What if we are all a dream of another alien?
My point is this: To respond to this post, you must entertain the possibility of "What If" seriously.

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 Message 2 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-25-2004 9:11 AM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 591 (80677)
01-25-2004 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
01-25-2004 2:29 PM


Re: Truth or Consequent
Brian writes:

Do you think it is possible that Jesus is not God and did not die for our sins?

In my belief, the answer is No. For the purposes of debate and discussion, I can entertain the possibility so as to see the puzzle from a different view.

So if you were to construct a "what if" such as "What If Jesus is a myth?" I would go along with it....thus, we would be able to debate and discuss.
It is a useful quality to be able to look at an issue from the mind and heart of the opposition in a debate. For example, many atheists view Christians as non intellectual, brainwashed, in a state of comfort and denial. Many Christians view atheists as arrogant and unwilling to accept blind faith.
Perhaps many who are atheist are perfectly happy where they are. They have a support group of friends and family who share their interests, love them unconditionally, and laugh about life in a loose, non uptite way. Several atheists were onetime Christian believers. Perhaps they were shunned and hurt by the church and support group that should have loved them. Faced with this in addition to re examining the facts from another view, the ex believer may still be searching and has concluded that the facts do not support the belief.
Now...I as a believer have the facts that support my belief, but these facts are unique to my own experience and cannot be used to convince anyone else. So I'll bite: If I take the position that Jesus is unreal as is Satan, you take the position that He and the devil are Real. Where do we go from here?

Edited by Phat, : quote


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 591 (80730)
01-25-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
01-25-2004 7:56 PM


Satans rank
Satan would not be in the class of a deity. He would be a created being.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 591 (80745)
01-25-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
01-25-2004 8:52 PM


Re: Satan
For the definitions of the paradigms within this "what if" scenario, I will use the majority opinion within orthodox belief. Satan was created by God, but not as an evil entity. Satan chose to exalt himself rather than be under Gods authority...and once an angel chooses, they cannot unchoose or change their mind. Yes...why God allowed it is a mystery, but within the definitions of Gods omnipotance, there is a purpose to it all. Perhaps evil made free will possible, for without a choice besides good, we too would have been good creatures under our own authority. For some reason, this does not work. Why would God make creatures who question His authority and even His existence? Getting back on topic, however...assume that God is all powerful, all knowing, and beyond human understanding. Assume that Satan is the very definition of lies and deceit and that satan is clever at twisting our thought concepts.
Given these realities, we cannot fathom the true meaning of reality by ignoring these forces. We thus must be in alligience with one of them. By definition that they exist,(per topic) they are more powerful than we are.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 591 (80764)
01-26-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:32 PM


What if Jesus/Satan were a reality? why evil?
I will keep it light, Yaro. You said:
Huh? Why create it in the first place? Would you set out a picnic table, invite your whole family, set out a pitcher of Lemonade and a pitcher of Hydracloric Acid, then chastise the person who drank the acid by saying:"I didn't mean for you to drink it! I just put it there to be an opposite to lemonade."

God knew what humans would do. It is not as if He slapped His Almighty Forehead and exclaimed, "Oh No! They ate the forbidden fruit! Now What am I gonna do?" If you had ONLY lenonaide at your stand, folks just would not have a choice. The issue is the choice.
Life and Death. Blessing and Cursing. In our big game of cosmic jeopardy, how many rational players would say "Alex, I'll take Death and Cursing for $40!" Eve did not perceive the choice as "good choice/bad choice." She only saw something else besides what she was told to do. Anyway....
To get back on Topic, Lets assume that Jesus...as Gods character and Satan...numero uno fallen angel...are real. Based on how the Bible and Orthodox Christianity interprets human nature, how would people respond?
This also assumes that humans are incapable of attaining perfection, although the concept is somewhat defineable.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 591 (80824)
01-26-2004 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Yaro
01-26-2004 2:49 AM


Good and Foozle foshizzle-in hell we sizzle
OK Yaro...lets run with this for a minute. Your basic statement is that God knew what would happen, which I agree with..since He knows everything. He created evil, however, is a bit more complex. He only created a system of choices. Daddy says to Billy, Billy, you stay in the house. Outside the house is the tree of the knowledge of pleasure and pain. If you go near it, you gonna hurt. If Billy always stays inside, he becomes a little wimp who has no mind of his own, so we imagine. Daddy also knows that Billy is gonna not listen to him one day. Why? Because pain did not listen, and fell from grace. pain by definition is the very action of not listening to Daddy.====> Check out the spirit vibes in Revelation:
Rev 1:4-6=Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Here is God who always was, is right now as we speak, and always will be. Notice how He frees us up from OUR sins by HIS blood.
Kinda like since Billy chose to go outside and mess with the tree of pleasure and pain, Billy and all his offspring deal with pain on a daily basis. It is a hopeless life until supernaturally someone else takes the pain and gives Billy back to his Daddy. Daddy wanted Billy to listen to him. It was Billys choice to not listen. Daddy could not have made Billy listen without making Billy a robot. ====> OK back to Revelation:
Rev 17:8=The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Here we have a critter who once was(note:it does not say that this critter always was) now is not a reality in this moment, yet exists for those who are not on Daddys guest list. Hmmmm..another choice, perhaps? First of all, the question is not so much "why did God create evil aka the Critter," but the question became humanities question when Eve disobeyed Daddy and became aware of two reality vibes...Daddy and the Critter. Jesus then came and took the bullet, thus making the Critter of no effect UNLESS our free will chooses not to listen to Daddy. Then...we are not on the guest list. Now...is this Daddys fault or is this our fault? See,Yaro...you say that god made us sucumb to evil.
succumb \se-kem\ vb 1 : to yield to superior strength or force or overpowering appeal or desire 2 : die syn submit, capitulate, relent, defer
The question is this: Was Eve unable to resist or did she choose? If she was unable to resist, we are predestined robots. If she chose, we then needed another choice to undo the first choice. Jesus is the second choice. Now...if we do not choose Daddy this time, is the Beast our only other choice, or like the lie says, will we be as gods ourselves...imagining a great universe and many possibilities of self achievemnt?

(

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 591 (80829)
01-26-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dan Carroll
01-26-2004 9:41 AM


Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Darkseid is the ruler of Apokolips, the evil opposing world to New Genesis, home of the New Gods. Surrounded by his lackeys, Darkseid uses his vast resources and armies of Parademons and Hunger Dogs to wreak havoc on the heroes of Earth and New Genesis. Darkseid is powerful in his own right, though, possessing of great strength, near invulnerability, and the bizarre Omega Beams, which he uses to destroy his opponents or teleport them to other dimensions. Orion is Darkseid's son and half-brother to Kalibak. Raised on New Genesis in an aborted attempt at peace, Orion turned against his father's evil ways to fight on the side of justice. Aided by a holographic helmet that disguises his true visage, Orion uses his greater than average strength to abet the Justice League in their struggle against Apokolips.
Lemme add another category to MY list:
Some of the free will creations with great senses of humor will distract the seriousness of the reality messages with lighthearted off topic comparisons...suggesting, perhaps, that it is all just a comic book story!
Its OK Dan...I'll have to start preaching on your humor thread!

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 591 (80834)
01-26-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Jack
01-26-2004 10:30 AM


If Jesus were real, we COULD ignore Him.
Mr. Jack= What you say is true in that Jesus DOES have the power to overcome the bad guy, yet the choice becomes our responsibility. We can't just assume that since God created us He can take on the responsibility of delivering us from all evil while still allowing us to think and do whatever we desire to think and do. The problem for many people, rightly so, is that they will not accept a human authority structure such as a church over their lives. Well and good.
The issue becomes more complex when our choice is to submit to a Holy Spirit or flow with our own wills.
The question then becomes this:
Are the freewill choices made by humans today leading us toward a better society and destiny or are we orphans without a Daddy cut off from our family and eternal purpose?
ON TOPIC, if Jesus and Satan are real, there is a cosmic battle of supernatural realities. It is true that Jesus has already won the battle, but the people whom He has liberated must profess allegiance or they will be on the other side by default.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 591 (80891)
01-26-2004 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dan Carroll
01-26-2004 1:29 PM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Dan and Alex...Cheers. OK..for the record, how is my initial analogy flawed? I must be dense. Second, my analogy is a "what if" analogy. Explain how flaws can exist? Perhaps in keeping tune with my analogy, Satan is using human intellect to ridicule itself. While I do not see a devil behind every coffee cup, I have personally witnessed proof of a supernatural realm that works for me. Others may dismiss it as insanity on my part. (Maybe I need to pray for better ways to convey the point behind my post,rather than attacking your views or defending my own.)
Yaro--we are back to square one. All right, if you claim that God created evil you are correct. We chose it, however. Why did He make it in the first place? Well to begin with, we cannot fathom His wisdom or His motives. If He were a "bad" God, there would not be much that we could do about it. Most anecdotal evidence points to Him as a God who "so loves the world" and who "cannot lie." There is one reason why the alternate vibe was created. What would a lie even be were it not permitted? Personally, I think that there is a reason why God allowed things to happen the way that they did, and I trust that He is not "burning off our feelers gleefully." To submit to the Holy Spirit does not mean that creative thought is stifled...unless by definition that creativity leads one towards independant omnipotence(which is the lie, by definition.) Note this scrip:
2 Thess 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Correct me if I am wrong, Yaro, but it seems that the point that you are making is why could not have God just skipped a step. Well..if evil did not exist, that opens up an entire other philosophical can of worms. Suffice it to say that one mans evil is another mans survival. The question then becomes why does man need to attempt to survive on his own? Is this the only paradigm that we have? Not if my "what if" concerning Gods character,Jesus Christ, is true. Obviously God did not want a race of robots, nor did He want a bunch of MTV "Rich Girls" living off of Him and not developing character. The question then becomes:
How is character developed?
1) Natural Selection
2) Willful choice
3) Impartation(spiritually) or genetics(naturally)
The whole point of the Fall of Man paradigm is that by our choice, a faulty spiritual impartation sentenced the species to death, and God infused His patch,(Son taking our sentence)which now allows us to once again choose.
Do those who choose wrongly go to Hell? If I were God, I would give them yet another chance, but then again, I did not write the book.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 591 (80969)
01-27-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by roboto85
01-26-2004 11:00 PM


Yaro and Mr. Roboto======>
Well,Guys...Im home from work so the post continues....as to evil, another good post that I read said this:
This is then the lesson we must learn. Satan--an angel created by God--was given the free will to choose whether or not he would obey God. He disobeyed, and that disobedience was evil.Satan made himself evil by choosing to do evil.In the same way, humans may choose to do right or wrong, and through their choices, evil flourishes.So. . . it was choice that caused Satan to be evil, not an act of Creation.
That was good, I thought. What is evil, by definition? Rebellion, use of power to harm or control, deceit, provocation,etc etc. Did God create the action or the potential outcome?
Back on TOPIC: IF JESUS AND SATAN ARE REAL, how would people respond?
Would the attempt to understand supernatural reality be an intellectual pretzel in futility? As to one of the themes of the Bible, the way to overcome evil is not through trying to be good. It ism, rather, through trusting and loving God. There is no way around that one, so Yaro if you really wanna rant on God, ask Him why He insists that we love Him as our only solution towards all of our eternal problems. :0

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 591 (81043)
01-27-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:24 PM


Did God create evil and what if He did?
Hey Guys. Lemme get into this lil go round wit yall...
Yaro=
At some point god laid out the ground rules for how morality was gonna function.
OK.The ground rules were simple. "Listen to me."
At some point he said to himself "ok, there is gonna be this stuff called good, and this other stuff called evil. And Im gonna make this dude who will betray me and ultimetly lead thousands of my creations to hell.
No. He made the "knowledge of Good and Evil",only to give a reality to free choice, yet told us not to go near it.If we were innocent, it was the snake that tricked us.Besides, we do not know who or what is in hell anyway.
It's god we are talking about here. He has unlimited choices. He could have designed the universe an infinite amount of different ways, yet he chose to create good and evil.
Again,He created the knowledge of good and evil. we chose to disobey. There is One way to obey, and lots of ways to disobey. I will admit that the reasoning of God is unknown.His reasoning is superior to anything that our finite minds can come up with,however. For mere humans to even attempt to put Him on trial is laughable,by definition.I suppose that He knows that we do not understand. Why can't we just submit when He gives us options to do so?
System of choices or not, evil is in this world by virture of the god who designed it.
Yes, I will agree with you that the Garden analogy happened before you or I were born. Perhaps any one of us would have listened and not touched, eh? Besides, how would a world of infinite good choices be any different? Hmmm..if we had that kinda freedom, we would be like God. Humans think that they are more complex than they really are. We are mortals with overgrown imaginations. Crashfrog states that
God has the ability to see ahead and the ability to prevent suffering. He's morally negligent if he decides not to use those powers.
yeah? Who appointed a mere man as a judge over anything? Its His universe, and even if we dare call Him an evil God, it looks like we are stuck. I guess it IS easier to deny His existence.If He makes no sense to us and our lofty wisdom, we can do without Him!(NOT)
By his inaction, God becomes an accomplice to every evil act.
except that little action of giving up His Son to redeem us for OUR initial BAD choice.
If God is love then he's ten times as negligent.
so what would be our sentence and punishment for God, if we could be allowed to sentence Him?
The question is why a moral God with the power to do something about it allows evil to persist.
Evil needs a vessel to be evil. We are the vessels for evil. God is allowing us to be human. He has given us a way out. What do ya want Him to do? Give us the option of being unable to make our own choices?
There's an infinite number of ways to do the right thing.
Oh really? No human can do an infinite amount of any choice. We are finite. Like I said before, there is one way to do the right thing if God is real. Listen to Him. There are numerous alternatives when we choose not to listen. News Flash: They are not "all good".

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 591 (81045)
01-27-2004 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 5:55 AM


Good God,Bad God, or No God
1ob•jec•tive \€b-"jek-tiv\ adj 1 : of or relating to an object or end 2 : existing outside and independent of the mind 3 : of, relating to, or constituting a grammatical case marking typically the object of a verb or preposition 4 : treating or dealing with facts without distortion by personal feelings or prejudices — ob•jec•tive•ly adv — ob•jec•tive•ness n — ob•jec•tiv•i•ty \'äb-'jek-"ti-v€-tÈ\ n
2objective n 1 : the lens (as in a microscope) nearest the object and forming an image of it 2 : an aim, goal, or end of action
sub•jec•tive \(')s€b-"jek-tiv\ adj 1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subject 2 : of, relating to, or arising within one's self or mind in contrast to what is outside : personal — sub•jec•tive•ly adv — sub•jec•tiv•i•ty \-'jek-"ti-v€-tÈ\ n
So we have choices. Potential is said to be infinite, as far as wisdom goes. I think that human potential is limited by time. We were told that to partake of the knowledge of good and evil would lead to death. Assume that before this point,l we were infinite or eternal if you will.
Someone stated that good and evil were subjective terms. God, however, is objective to those who choose to deny Him..outside of the mind...perhaps as a fantasy...yet is subjective or personal to those who accept Him. Now...if He becomes subjective to us, we then become subjective to Him. Evil is no longer our problem. If, however, we remain objective, we are responsible for achieving our destiny. Hence, free will.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 591 (81096)
01-27-2004 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by helena
01-27-2004 11:15 AM


This just don't hold water...er...spirit
Hey Alex! My original premise was a bit hastily constructed and poorly thought out, but it stems from a quote that I read from the Christian Apologist C.S. Lewis.
Satans neatest trick is convincing us that he does not exist.
The idea of Christians being ridiculed and made to look stupid does not come from watching the Creationists get flayed about in this message board! Rather, I remember here in Denver shortly after the Columbine High School shootings when Franklin Graham came to town and got lambasted for his message. I have previously noted that when other religious leaders such as the Dalai Lama speak at conventions, they rarely have groups of protesters ranting against them as do the Christians. Perhaps you are correct in calling it political,however. As in the gay marriage debate. All too often, even when Christians may be right, they are wrong. Personally, I would label myself as a liberal to moderate absolutist. I am pro choice as opposed to pro life, because I do not believe in legislating morality. If people want to make everything relative, let them do it. God will deal with us all later, should we need it. One last thing that I have observed. Two groups of people seem by my observation to be oppressed by something. One group is the non believers who often smugly inform us why god is a myth and a fantasy. The other group is the self professed believers who defiantly and desparately insist that we see God as obviously as they claim to see Him.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12799
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 591 (81287)
01-28-2004 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by roboto85
01-27-2004 6:30 PM


BACK TO THE TOPIC>>J.C. & El Diablo
It is societies that create the idea of evil and good, not gods.
No. According to this scenario, God created the knowledge of good and evil. Society and individuals merely act on the knowledge that was chosen for humans by the first disobedient action.

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