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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 591 (80743)
01-25-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
01-25-2004 8:52 PM


Re: Satan
I now realize that people can be quite blind to their own statements. In the world (Universe I guess you could say) in which we live, people are very aware of the fact of opposites. For example, the opposite of up is down, the opposite of go is stop, the opposite of good is bad, the opposite of hot is cold (to some degree , the opposite of love is hate, the opposite of wet is dry, the opposite of envy is contentment ... the list goes on. It are these things, that keep the world in a balance you could say. What would our world be like if it was impossible to not like something or someone. Or what if EVERYTHING you did was good, even if it was bad. It really is a paradox in itself. When you think about it, its a complex system of running things, one that is designed perfectly. The tiniest switch around, and who knows. The fabric of society, perhaps even the fabric of the Universe would fall apart. So yes, these things are all available to us. But humans have made the right decisions, as of yet, as to shunning the wrong for the most part, and going with the good. When they've done otherwise, the consequences were only disastrious. God wants us to make the right decisions. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to make the wrong decisions. As I stated before, it would be a paradox if it was impossible to do something wrong. So yes, I suppose God created the possibility to do wrong. But He didn't want people to accept that, as it can only lead to our detriment. The Bible does state though, that we were made as relatively perfect humans. Therefore, doing the right thing wouldn't be a challenge as long as we wanted to. But because of the balance required, that didn't mean it would be impossible. Probably one of the most powerful agents, envy, cause Satan to rebel against God. But it only took one spirit to open the box that should have remained forever enclosed. And by that I mean 2 things. 1) Him choosing the wrong course caused Adam to sin, therefore taking away relative perfection and making it much much easier to take the wrong course. 2) Satan would now be able to influence people even MORE into taking the wrong course. So I know I've sorta been rambling, and haven't put this together very well, but here's a sum up. Evil is a POSSIBILITY, just one of the many things that keep the world balanced. Yes, God did create this Possibility, but the actions of one, caused the whole thing to get way out of control. And in closing, God wants us to serve him out of our own desires and will. If it was only possible to do right, we wouldn't be able to show anything. Everything would be out of whack... Man this topic is sorta confusing, but I hope your catching my drift. The way it is, is just the right way. If it were any other way, I'd have more reason not to believe in a God. Why am I even having to say this?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 8:52 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 10:53 PM roboto85 has responded
 Message 20 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:21 AM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 591 (80751)
01-25-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Yaro
01-25-2004 10:53 PM


Re: Satan
Thank you Yaro, for confirming my argument. I was simply explaining why such a thing would be necessary, or even to our benefit. For example, knowing we took the right course, when there was a potential wrong course. I also explained how although God created potential evil, it wasn't his intentions for evil to be chosen. In doing this, I put into question your intitial statement, which really seemed to serve no purpose.

If I were to again use more detail in my statement, I would have put God outside the realm of "paradoxes" that we may associate with ourself.

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-25-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 10:53 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:32 PM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 591 (80754)
01-25-2004 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:32 PM


Re: Satan
Your being extremely stupid, how could you not grasp something so simple? I already explained it earlier in my previous post, either it went past your brain for some reason, or it is too much for you to handle. I am not going through it again just so you can start all over like you have just done. I'll let any reader who can think for a second, decide on this one. And BTW, I can tell from your lemonade analogy what stream of thought you are on. I hope you can as well.

Sorry for the light insults, but I really wish they weren't necessary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:32 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:52 PM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 591 (80759)
01-25-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:52 PM


Re: Satan
Yes, I suppose you are right, I did call you blind. It really was unnessecary since I wasn't aware why you had that viewpoint.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:52 PM Yaro has not yet responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 591 (80777)
01-26-2004 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:21 AM


Re: Satan
Ok this is one of those discussions. I'm sorta agreeing with you, your sorta agreeing with me. However, a few things need to be cleared up.

At the end of my initial post, I only reaffirmed your initial statement. So really, we're arguing about something we both agree upon. The only difference is I'm stating why God would create a potential evil. We both agree that there is evil. You however seem to think that it serves no purpose.

You have not shown a verse that says this balance is required, nor have you made a single statement that proves that we need Evil. Can you show why we NEED EVIL?

Hmm, before I go any further with this, I don't even know if you even think evil exists. Yes, everything is relative to the system that God set in place. And their are certain things, that I believe God made evil, and you might believe we have just come to think they're evil. And yes, there are those fine points like "what if your killing someone to save someone else's life?" But you go as far as to say everything only exists in the human mind. So answer these 2 questions for me and it just might end this circular debate, 1) "Is killing someone for no reason evil?" 2) "If God DIDN'T create evil does that mean it would be impossible to pick up a gun, and shoot someone with it, killing them?" Or if there was no evil, would that just mean people wouldn't have any thoughts or intentions to do such a thing? But as I stated earlier, that's the way most of us operate. That's also the way God intended us to operate. But how could such a thing be impossible? This is part of the paradox I am referring to.

How could you do something bad if everything you did was good? this dosn't make sense. Don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand it.

roboto85 writes:

What would our world be like if it was impossible to not like something or someone. Or what if EVERYTHING you did was good, even if it was bad.

Ok, so your proving my point? You agreed that it is a paradox.

No, he created evil. Period. he invented it, and let it loose. He knew satan was coming, and what he was gonna do, he let it happen. He created evil.

Well, since we've established that it would be a parodox if evil didn't exist, then there is reason to create evil. But I have a gripe with your second statement. God set out the perfect system. Satan broke that perfect system. (Meaning he didn't follow it) God allowed Satan do this because, if anything, it only proves that disobediance to God can only cause heartache. However, it is not for us to decide whether or not He should have allowed Satan to do this. Satan was the one who did it, not God. We all may have our own opinions about God. We're created in his image, perhaps he feels that people should make their own mistakes. Isn't that something society as a whole accepts as the best way of learning something?

I think we both agree that there has to be a possibility to do wrong or evil. And if you dont, please refer to my 2 questions.

Couldn't he have saved us all a heap of truble by not makeing the bad stuff to begin with.

Ok... you really need to explain yourself here.

Im losing you here. How do oposits keep society and the universe working? Why does society need evil?

Ok, after much brain tangling, I think I've come to a conclusion. Society doesn't NEED evil. Any fool could answer that one. Things would be much better if evil wasn't around. But, I will state once again, the POSSIBILITIY to do evil must be there. This is the foundation I'm working off of. If you'd like to explain how this is not necessary, please do so.

What's the use of evil? Why does the world neceistate an oposit?

I really dont know. I don't think you know either. It's just the way things work. And I don't think either of us could think of a better way, without having a Universe that couldn't run properly, or even exist for that matter. I guess your questioning science, and I still don't know why (it is a paradox after all). And I'm not questioning God, because after all, the way we have it, it isn't a paradox. The Universe hasn't exploded lately or anything, has it?

Ya, what are you saying? No offence, Im really curious how you arive at your belife, that Evil is a necissary component to the universe.

Or better yet, how do you arrive at the belief that evil (or possibility to do evil) is not necessary.

Care to dance some more? Not that I don't think you can reply, but I really think we're both digging ourselves into a hole here. Round and round we go. I still agree with me, I win. I still don't know what the heck your talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:21 AM Yaro has not yet responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 591 (80780)
01-26-2004 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:21 AM


Lemonade Analogy
God puts some lemonade (good) and whatever deadly stuff u said (bad) on a picnic table. You said it wasn't necessary for God to put the other deadly stuff on the picnic table. So everybody is all happy drinking from the lemonade, duh duh DAH. 1) Until one day, somebody wants to have some of the other stuff. They reach to grab it, but it's not there. Ahh, but they still had the thought to have it. That's evil in itself. So now its impossible to think anything but good things. 2) Now, lets say they have no intentions to drink it because its bad, but they can't have any intentions to drink it at all, because it's not even there.

In the first case, we have people that can't control their thoughts. Robots in other words. In the second case, we have people who have basically destroyed the entire Universe. Ahh, it truly is a perfect system. Thanks for the lemonade analogy, it really came in handy.

Ok, well the second one sorta sucks and doesn't work, but that's because we're dealing with lemonade here and not reality. LOL>>>>>

Maybe the second one doesn't suck. But they both fit together to explain how you either have mindless robots, or paradoxes left and right. Ok once again, I dont know how much the paradox thing applies here, because this analogy would have to get much more detailed in order for that to come into play. Like mixing spoons of death and such.

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:21 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 591 (80784)
01-26-2004 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
01-26-2004 1:47 AM


God could have simply made it so that BAD didn't exist. Thus, the choice would be unecisary, bad dosn't exist.

Its like saying a choice between good and foozle, foozle dosn't exist. Get it?

No, I don't get it. And I don't think you get it either. And plus, I really don't think "simply" is involved here. Let's go with your foozle thing for a second. Ahh lets not. It makes no sense. Answer my questions! LOL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:49 AM roboto85 has not yet responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 591 (80790)
01-26-2004 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
01-26-2004 1:47 AM


Why does god need this choice in the first place? He knows how it's gonna work out. He knew what satan was gonna do etc. There really wasn't a choice. In fact it was all part of gods 'plan'. How is this choice?

How is that part of Gods plan... So then you believe in fate? I believe in a God who lets us make our own choices, whether or not he knows how its going to work out. He may or may not choose to look into the future and see how things are going to go. For all we know, He may not. But even if He did, it would only mean we had no choices if He made sure nothing bad happened.

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:45 AM roboto85 has not yet responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 591 (80902)
01-26-2004 5:43 PM


Ok Yaro, I guess now I will justifiably, (atleast to me) repost my original statement. That people can be blind to their own statements. You failed, and have still failed to realize the repurcussions of a world where nothing you did was wrong. Or a world where it was impossible to do anything wrong.

So when I said god could have simply made evil not exist in the first place, It makes perfect sense. He wanted it to exist, for whatever reasen. He made us to succomb to it. And now he punishes us for it.

You make these statements, I guess for not one second thinking about how this would at all be possible. What does evil not existing involve? This question correlates with my original two questions which you have failed to answer. I guess in your mind, your thinking of a fairy tale world, where it's impossible to do certain things, or control your own actions and thoughts. But I seriously think it's impossible, if you want to have a well working system. Perhaps that's why you have avoided those questions. Yes, with God all things are possible. He could have made a Universe where everything you did was right, and evil didn't exist. But if you delve into this statement just a tad further, you will see that it just doesn't work. Like you said, everythings relative. A world with evil, may not be all that bad of a thing. Therefore, God creating evil, may not consist of what you imagine. Maybe it just involves a Universe, where people are bound by their own actions, to either do the right, or the wrong. If the wrong isn't there, they have nothing to choose. If either isn't there, and everything is in our head, then what are we blaming God for?

God created murder, famin, death, suffering, desise, all to be a contrast to stuff that was nice?

Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future. However, the evils I thought we were debating over, concern evil ACTIONS of others. These are things that simply have to be available. Otherwise, everything you did would be right. Which we realize can not possibly be the case.

Hmmmm.... this brings me to another point. God is creating the universe, he invented all the stuff he dosn't like. When you think about it god created sin, lies, murder, lust, stealing, etc. etc. etc.

He did create these things, but once again, these are things that have to be available to us in order to have a working world. There's more to this statement than you may think. Let's say God made it so stealing didn't exist. Would this mean that taking something from someone else was mighty fine? Or would this mean that it would be impossible to take something from someone else. Like, as soon as you did, you would disappear? But that wouldn't be good either, because people can repent. So just because they do one thing wrong, doesn't mean it's a lost cause. Or maybe the world you invision, consists of no items to take away from others, or no people to do the taking. Doesn't sound like much of a world to me. Think... before... u make me say these things.

So it was gods choice to invent evil. He could have made it something else, it didn't have to be evil, or have the consequences it does.

So your saying that stabbing someone in the chest with a pocket knife, might not have to be evil after all. It could be a gesture to show how much you love that person. But now, you have not only violated the laws of science, and corrupted a working human system, but you have made a pretty bad carpet and shirt stain. And once again, the real problem with this is that we have a situation where every action is a good one. People would be limited to always making the right choice, thereby, taking away free will and basically turning us into mindless robots. Sounds good to me.

Huh? This makes no sense, bad or good, he already knew what was gonna happen. Wether he chooses to 'pretend' he dosn't or not. It's god we are dealing with here.

If you were to look into the future, and see that something was to happen, would that mean that a series of events would not have led up to that happening? Just because you could look into the future, would that mean that series of events was out of the control of everyone but yourself? The answer is no.

I don't want to see this discussion going on again... I'm sick of stating the same things your not seeming to grasp. Hey, it's even making me look stupid. But seriously, if you would like to explain more in depth as to how a world without murder, lies, stealing... would be possible, be my guest. I would enjoy reading your thoughts as to that matter. But THIS is the core of your argument, and you have yet to prove this in any way. But you'll have to come up with something a little better than lemonade on a picnic table, though I can see where you may have been going with that.

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]


Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 6:41 PM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 591 (80933)
01-26-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Yaro
01-26-2004 6:41 PM


Re: Weee! Fun fun fun!
My argument is already proven. It is based on the assumption that god is all powerful.

Ok, maybe we need to deal with this one statement to end this. Because, as it stands, this is the only basis for your argument. You say things would be better if all we could do was good, and it was impossible to do anything wrong. And I'll go even further with that, and say (as you have stated), that wrong or evil even goodness, doesn't even exist. And the funny thing is, you can't even begin to fathom what is involved in that. You are simply resting it all on God's shoulders. I examined how a system such as that, wouldn't work in the first place. It would fall to pieces. I'm sure God examined that as well. That's why, we live under the current system we do. And it works just fine. Maybe I have to go all the way back to my beginning post to make you understand something you must have missed. God did not intend for evil to get out of hand. Certain things (if you would like to read again, in first post) caused it to. So, as you stated in your first post, 'oh there's so much evil, God must like that stuff.' That means squat. Let's say things had gone the way intended, and evil would have remained at a bare minimum or even next to none. You wouldn't have anything to complain about. But evidently, as I have stated oh so many times in quite detail, there are logical reasons why everything you do is not good. End of story.

I'm sorta venturing from my original argument with this one, but besides, you already have stated that you believe everything is in our mind, invented by us. We have decided what's right and what's wrong. So, according to you, even if you thought there was a God, He didn't create evil anyway. We only brought it upon ourselves. So that, in itself, clears away that God is to blame. And it only re-emphasizes one of my original statements, that rebellion from God, can only lead to either evils we create, or evils God created. And don't give that jibberish once again about how just because God may have been able to see into the future, that we have no control of our actions.

He was the main catalyst for all events. Not only that, but he was fully aware of all the repercussions, results, and final outcomes of what he created, so the answer is YES, he must have been in full control. He is god, if he exists, he knew how the dominoes were gonna fall, after all, he laid them out.

Gah, your not seeming to grasp something so simple. First of all, we don't even know that God USED his ability to see into the future. Would an all powerful God not be able to control whether or not he wanted to see what would happen? Secondly, even if he DID look ahead and see that it was going to happen, that does not mean the blames on Him, or that our actions don't determine our future. You know, even if He did look ahead, He could have shook his head in sorrow to see the events that were going to take place (Satan rebelling, Adam eating the Apple etc.). But we also know God is bound by His own laws. For example, God cannot lie, and God is love. Another one of God's laws is that His creations actions, are going to determine their future. And this would apply to Satan as well. So whether or NOT he looked ahead and saw what was going to happen, you are jumping to conclusions that you have no right to jump to by stating that things went the way God wanted them to go, and that we have no control of our future

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT BIT. I'm not going to have you say this again...

So yes he is responsible for it all.

Wrong...

Now could you explain how god would find such an ideal world impossible to create?

I already have, throught the sum culmination of my posts. I didn't say that it would be impossible. In fact, I stated that it WAS possible. I only stated that not only according to my puny reasoning, not only according to the system we have around us, not only according to all the scientists we have, but also according to God's reasoning, that the way we have of running things, is deviced perfectly, works perfectly, and is only out of whack because of the events in time, which are described in the Bible.

Could you explain how the being that set the first domino in motion, with a full understanding of every little detail that was about to transpire, doesn't contradict free will, thereby contradicting the perceived choice between good and evil?

Yeah, uh, see 2 paragraphs up.

Not only have I answered your two questions, it really wasn't hard as you stated.

You however, have yet to answer my questions other than...

With God all things are possible

And I will 100 percent agree with that.
Therefore, if that's your statement, you have to be ready to admit that God intentionally chose this system, because it was possible, and it already is the best system. Things got way out of hand, so thats one reason your even questioning God's system. If evil wasn't so prevalent in the world today, you'd be saying, "Wow, I couldn't have done it any better myself. Everyone follows God's laws, and evil isn't even a problem. The world is in perfect balance, I have the right to make my own decisions, and the Hydrochloric Acid may be there, if for whatever evil reasons I choose to do something evil. But I'm the happiest I could possibly be, I'm sticking with the Lemonade.

The End-

Meaning, I am not continuing this debate with you anymore, it over finuto, done with. We've both gotten to say our parts. Write more if you please, but I'm through. PEOPLES THOUGHTS PLEASE!!! You can disagree with me, that's fine.

EDIT: I just had to add this in here somewhere

Are you sure these things aren't just processes of nature? After all disease is usually caused by very small organisms. Their just trying to get by. They prey on other living things just as everything else in this world. Famine, just happens, death happens, etc. These are bad things.

Are you saying it's not in the power of an all powerful God to do away with these things. As I stated in the same statement you replied to

handsomeandsmartfellaroboto85 writes:

Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future.

Yes these are bad things, and there are scientific reasons why these things exist. But what's that have to do with anything?

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 6:41 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 10:01 PM roboto85 has not yet responded
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2004 11:01 PM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 591 (80934)
01-26-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by roboto85
01-26-2004 9:57 PM


Re: Weee! Fun fun fun!
That was fun...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 9:57 PM roboto85 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-26-2004 10:42 PM roboto85 has not yet responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 591 (80950)
01-26-2004 11:00 PM


How do you know what he's thinking? I couldn't follow Yaro with everything he said, in fact, with a crap load of it, and am not frustrated. The only thing that may have made me frustrated is having to state the same things over and over again, without Yaro seeming to grasp it. I actually gave reasoning as to why, all he said was God is all powerful. And then I went with that as well. Perhaps it's the differing of opinions, but I don't see how anything I say can't be enough for him. He may very well feel the same for me.

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]


Replies to this message:
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 Message 48 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-27-2004 1:09 AM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 591 (81000)
01-27-2004 1:53 AM


Wow crashfrog, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I am quite surprized. If only Yaro had gotten it that easily...

[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-27-2004]


Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 2:18 AM roboto85 has not yet responded
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 2:19 AM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 591 (81004)
01-27-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Gilgamesh
01-27-2004 1:09 AM


Sure, why don't you just both jump on the Atheist bandwagon. I believe Yaro is the one who has talked himself to a dead-end. And plus, he has God's infinite possibilities on his side to boot. While I accept this as fact, I realize that there are limitations and guidelines God uses that need to be taken into consideration.

I don't even think you understand what your talking about Gilgamesh... First of all, let me as you a couple questions. Do you even believe evil exists in our world? Secondly, do you believe that the potential to do wrong needs to exist in our world.

Given the arbitray subjective nature of "Evil", it's existence is far from "necessary".

Ok, maybe I didn't touch on this point. I don't really know how this point has much to do with anything anyway. But I'll go with it. Given the fact that we really don't know what's evil and what's not, we have basically invented what's right and what is wrong. Therefore, we don't necessarily have to have evil because we could have just said everything was good? So what does humans deciding whether or not killing someone for no reason is a good thing, have to do with God's creation of the ability to take any given course? If this is your argument, then you're stating that humans created evil, not God. Well thats a whole nother deal, and I now realize you were mixing this in with this whole debate and making it more difficult.

I must say, this whole thing is confusing me. The whole debate really is circular. We're arguing about something we already agree upon. But we do agree, but then we don't really agree, since everybody's just playing along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-27-2004 1:09 AM Gilgamesh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-27-2004 2:16 AM roboto85 has responded

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 591 (81015)
01-27-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Gilgamesh
01-27-2004 2:07 AM


Re: Free will
Sure it does, to some extent atleast. It confirms one of my arguments that regardless of whether or not God knows the future, we are still in control of our own lives. As he said, simply looking back on the past, doesn't mean that people have no control over their present actions. And simply looking ahead in the future, doesn't mean people have no say in their actions. It just means that person can see the actions you took that led you into that position.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-27-2004 2:07 AM Gilgamesh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 2:28 AM roboto85 has responded

  
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