even though 90% of the respondants to this old topic no longer are here at EvC, I thought I would bring this back for current discussion.
quote:The fact of Jesus and Satan is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?
1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time. 2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them. 3) People who practiced and studied occult and ancient mystery religions would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over supernatural reality. They would consider it all an exercise in intellectual mystic states of achievement. 4) Many would call themselves Christians who were not. 5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered. 6) Jesus would love all of us...buffoon and bartender, professor and psychotic. 7) Satan would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone! 8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.
It looks to me like you made some observations from today's world, like say that Christians are made to look ignorant, and then said that if Jesus and Satan were real, then we should see these observations from today's world that I've made.
You've provided no reason why those things follow from the premise.
You've provided no reason why those things follow from the premise.
Good point. For the sake of argument, we will follow the oremise that a basic fundamentalist would use....namely that society was born sinful and is ignorant of spiritual truth, that the whole scenario was preordained and that Jesus Christ broke this curse from society.
Okay, whatever. But you still haven't provided an argument for why any of those items in your list would be true if Jesus and Satan were real.
Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous.
How do you know which of Jesus' teachings were meant for those people back then and which ones were meant for us today?
People make the mistake of assuming that the Gospel of Grace preached by the Apostle Paul is some sort of cheap substitute and marketing gimmick
That's because of the behavior of its proponents...
You cant simply go do good works and have a callous indifference to God. It wont work.
It all depends whether you have more of a reverence for common sense than you do for faith. It may be possible to accept that our logic will steer us one way and our faith will steer us another.
That sounds like something you'd get from a fundy cult...
"Listen, this is going to be really hard to believe, and if you think about then you're probably not going to, so don't think about it and just accept it on faith that its true"
No, Phat, that's terrible advice.
What if you believed that humans were by nature competitive and selfish and thus believed that your thinking would inevitably lead you away from God and closer to self deification?
He'll still have the power to reach you. Being afraid of knowledge leading you from God, and therefore avoiding it to save faith, has got to be one of the most crippling disabilities that you can give to yourself.
God gave you a brain. Use it.
The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false. - St. Thomas Aquinas
That's the reason that you think you know. That still doesn't tell me how you know.
You know how gravity works right? This does not mean you know the theory, it just means you understand how gravity works. This is the same for revelations.
Okay, let's say that you are standing in a box. You can feel the force pushing you towards the bottom. How do you know that it is gravity?
Now consider that you may be in one of these contraptions:
(click to enlarge)
How would you find out that it wasn't actually gravity that you are feeling?
Well, you'd have to step outside of the box. As long as you remain in the box, you are unable to distinguish between gravity and artificial weight.
The same goes for revelation. You have to step outside the box and see the whole picture to determine if what you think you know is correct. And if you find that the knowledge that has been revealed to you is in error, then you can be assured that it is not from God.
If you've received a revelation that Genesis is confirmed by science, then that information could not have come from God. Genesis is utterly refuted by science.
If Satan is real, how do you know that your revelation did not come from him? How do you know that it came from God?
Remember, you have to step outside of the Bible. I don't doubt that you can find internal consistency in there, but that doesn't lead you to truth. Just like staying in the box and feeling the artificial weight would make you think it was gravity.
Besides, there's plenty of fiction that is internally consistent. If you can't step outside of the box, then you can't get past the fact that you might be living in The Matrix.
This is the same for revelations. They are much different than coincidences. They are answers to questions, or at least the revelations I receive are answers to questions. I have received perfect answers to questions. I was about to explain one of them to you but apparently that is off topic.
That answers are easier to remain perfect if they're kept within the internal consistency rather than pulling them outside of the box and checking to see if the answers actually work.
If you've concluded through revelation that Genesis is confirmed by science, then you have not stepped outside of the box... because that is clearly wrong.
That revelation could not have come from God, but if Satan is real then it could have came from him.
When you know, you just know you know, because you know, you know?
But again, that's just saying why you know.
Its not saying how you know. Or how you know that you know.
One day I decided to give it a test in order to make an observation. I prayed to whatever was out there to make itself known to me. I didn't ask Christ, or Elohim to speak to me. I asked God if you are out there make yourself known to me. This lead to a many revelations, not mere coincidences. Now I accept Christ as the son of God. I am not going to dive into the specifics of the revelation because it is personal.
I don't like to get into the particulars either.
What you are essentially saying, is that God singled you out and miraculously made you know that you know that it was Him.
But the question remains, how do you know that it was God that did that?
How do you know it wasn't something else? Like, Satan or whatever.
I mean, you said it happened after you tested God. Maybe you opened your self up to other influences too, no? Isn't that possible?
If Satan was real, don't you think that he'd be trying to sway people? Wouldn't those looking to be swayed be an easier target?
You mean asking questions and refusing to put up with BS, makes me not such a nice fellow..? Just for sh!ts and giggles, what difference should that make anyway. Either your God exists, or He doesn't. And since, in the estimation of nearly every Christian I've ever encountered, I am destined to be tortured for all eternity for the unforgiveable sin of apostasy, I don't intend to kiss your @ss.
Once again, and for the learning impaired, I haven't said anything.
Every time you submit text into this forum you are saying something, ya dingus. Or are you gonna go the route of none of this stuff being protected by the First Amendment because we're not literally "speaking"? And please, for the love of blowjobs, do not provide an argument via dictionary. They're descriptive, not proscriptive. When Michael Jackson sang that song Bad, he was not saying that he was of low or poor quality, even thought that is the definition of the word.
How could you not know this stuff?
Don't you also think the Theory of Evolution and the Geologic Column to be dumb ideas..?
Wow, you're prejudiced too? I notice that you edited out the line from your previous message (ABE: my mistake, that's still there in a more recent message) where you said that you didn't feel like you had to be nice to me because the other Christians you've encountered have told you that you were going to hell. Do you also cross the street to avoid black people?
And just so you understand what I'm saying, since you cannot see past the literal meanings of words, prejudice is that act of pre-judging someone before you get to know them. It would be like me seeing that picture in your avatar and saying that since you've got that flimsy posture with your ass pushed out and have a creepy molester mustache, then you must be a homosexual and therefore you're a cocksucker. But I'm not gonna do that, because I'm not prejudiced like you are.
Anyways, this topic is about what if Jesus and Satan were real.
If Satan was real, then he would send bigoted queer pedants to post inane stuff on this forum in an attempt to test the faith of the good Christian folks that are here.