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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 115 of 591 (707336)
09-26-2013 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Re: Classic Topic
Thugpreacha writes:

Now...what if this belief were real?


Your predictions stem from a very narrow view of that proposed "reality". You seem to be assuming a fundamentalist reality in which Christians are the victims rather than the "saved".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 5:29 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 127 of 591 (707452)
09-27-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
09-26-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Phat writes:

Finally, for the sake of argument, I am proposing that there are two basic groups of people...those with a natural mind (free from any form of indoctrination and/or salvation entirely) and those whom, as seen earlier in this topic and whom I may quote from time to time, who have a transformed mind through the Holy Spirit.


Does it occur to you that a "transformed mind" might not be a good thing?

Phat writes:

I am not judging anyone nor claiming anything apart from the premise that there are natural minds and "spiritually enlightened" minds....


Your 1 Corinthians quote talks about a natural or spiritual body, not mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 12:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-28-2013 1:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 129 of 591 (707615)
09-29-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-28-2013 1:02 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Phat writes:

The implication being that the natural pattern of thought in the world by natural men (and women) was contrary to Pauls exhortation.


You may be going a bit far afield for your "context". In any case neither Paul nor anybody else can detect anybody's pattern of thought except through their pattern of action.

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 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-28-2013 1:02 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 134 of 591 (707685)
09-30-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:44 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
Phat writes:

Of course I am assuming that humans by nature do not want to find nor follow Jesus.


I know that's the standard fundie line but it doesn't match reality. Most humans have both good and bad aspects in their "nature". Whether they're real or not, Jesus and Satan personify those good and evil natures.

Since the evil nature is usually individualistic and the good nature is usually social, it seems odd to me that many Christians espouse the right-wing propaganda of individualism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:44 AM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by vimesey, posted 09-30-2013 12:24 PM ringo has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 146 of 591 (707821)
10-01-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:58 AM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:

...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart.


What does that even mean? The way you talk about "giving one's heart" sounds to me like saying, "Lord, Lord," which is frowned upon.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 149 of 591 (708004)
10-03-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
10-02-2013 12:40 AM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:

How are words and sentences and paragraphs given meaning?


Often through context, which is why I linked your phrase "giving your heart" with the Biblical context of saying, "Lord, Lord." How does your notion of giving your heart differ from paying lip service if it doesn't involve doing something?

Phat writes:

Can emotions be inferred through the descriptive ability of the chosen words.


It isn't your emotions that are uncertain here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-02-2013 12:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 159 of 591 (708064)
10-04-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
10-03-2013 4:48 PM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:

Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous.


So, if the sheep/goats scripture doesn't apply to you what do you have to do to be righteous? How does Jewish righteousness differ from Gentile righteousness?

Phat writes:

... the point of giving your heart is that you allow the Holy Spirit to empower you to joyfully do good works---not as an effort towards salvation but as a cheerful result of surrendering to God.


So there's no point at all to the good works themselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 8:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 170 of 591 (708136)
10-05-2013 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
10-05-2013 8:34 AM


Re: Do good works cheerfully
Phat writes:

I might add that a person whom counts faith as righteousness would quite naturlally do good works anyway, at least in theory.


You know very well that that "theory" doesn't work in practice - in fact it's a failed hypothesis. A thinking person will discard a failed hypothesis whether Jesus is real or not. Clinging to a failed hypothesis is foolish whether Satan is real or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 8:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 6:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 172 of 591 (708184)
10-06-2013 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
10-05-2013 6:02 PM


Re: Do good works cheerfully
Phat writes:

It all depends whether you have more of a reverence for common sense than you do for faith. It may be possible to accept that our logic will steer us one way and our faith will steer us another.


I did say "a thinking person". You can't have it both ways. You can't be a thinking person and put faith ahead of thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 6:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by yenmor, posted 10-06-2013 4:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-06-2013 8:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 175 of 591 (708188)
10-06-2013 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by yenmor
10-06-2013 4:14 PM


Re: Do good works cheerfully
yenmor writes:

Sure, you can.


Not at the same time. You can put faith first on Sunday and go back to thinking on Monday but you always have to park one of them at the door.

When you're thinking, you're a thinking person. When you're not, you're not.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 178 of 591 (708194)
10-06-2013 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by yenmor
10-06-2013 4:17 PM


Re: A Matter Of Speculation and Discernment
yenmor writes:

In short, the good lord sure gave us the ability to put millions of people in ovens and exterminate entire races. But I don't think anyone would argue that just because the good lord gave us that ability doesn't mean he wants us to use it.


If you give a child a blank wall and a box of crayons you might not "want" him to draw on it but you can expect that he will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by yenmor, posted 10-06-2013 4:17 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by yenmor, posted 10-06-2013 6:45 PM ringo has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 182 of 591 (708228)
10-07-2013 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
10-06-2013 8:46 PM


Re: Do good works cheerfully
Phat writes:

What if you believed that humans were by nature competitive and selfish and thus believed that your thinking would inevitably lead you away from God and closer to self deification?


That's a believing position, not a thinking position.

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 208 of 591 (724679)
04-19-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
04-18-2014 5:01 PM


Re: Reality versus Make Believe
Phat writes:

While I don't believe that all stories are made up by humans to entertain/convince/control other humans, I will admit that it is not easy to tell which is which.


The thing is that the Bible shoots itself in the foot on page two. The talking snake is quite obviously made up, though the motivation may be uncertain. So if there's obvious fiction on page two, why would we believe stories about Satan on page one-ninety-five or stories about Jesus on page three-sixty-three?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 04-18-2014 5:01 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 214 of 591 (725050)
04-23-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Phat
04-23-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:

Saying that the stories are made up is only based on the idea that evidence is required.


Yes, evolution is "only" based on the evidence; gravity is "only" based on the evidence; all of reality is "only" based on the evidence.

Phat writes:

My basis for belief is based on experiences that I have had which were unexplainable.


If they're unexplainable, how is "God" an explanation? Why can't you just leave it at unexplainable?

Phat writes:

The idea of a God that has my back is compelling.


And yet the evidence is that no god has your back; no god is reliable. But that's "only" evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Phat, posted 04-23-2014 1:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-25-2014 1:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19527
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 216 of 591 (725133)
04-24-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by MFFJM2
04-24-2014 6:50 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
MFFJM2 writes:

Isn't the idea of magical pixies having your back just as compelling..?


Your back would get pretty dusty.

Edited by ringo, : pelling.


This message is a reply to:
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