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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 476 of 591 (727374)
05-17-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Blue
05-17-2014 4:43 PM


Re: Satan
I really don't see how Eve knew it was the tree of good and evil, if the serpent is an internal adversary how did she know?

If this is the case how can she and Adam be held culpable for their 'crime'?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 4:43 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 5:42 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 478 of 591 (727378)
05-17-2014 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Blue
05-17-2014 5:42 PM


Re: Satan
How could he have known the difference between good and evil until he had eaten from the tree?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 5:42 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 5:54 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 480 of 591 (727380)
05-17-2014 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Blue
05-17-2014 5:54 PM


Re: Satan
Neither Adam or Eve was able to make an informed decision about fruit eating. For Yahweh to apportion culpability to them is like blaming a child for eating the plutonium dad left in the Wendy house.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 5:54 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:06 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 482 of 591 (727382)
05-17-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Satan
Then I'm not sure what point you are making. I'm suggesting the Yahweh is a colossal dick to set things up so he has a reason to punish humanity.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:06 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:11 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 484 of 591 (727384)
05-17-2014 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:11 PM


Re: Satan
Okay, I'll stop calling him a dick (it adds nothing to my point and detracts from my point, I guess).

We are still left with the idea that Yahweh set things up in such a way that Adam and Eve would eat the wrong thing. This set a great deal of important wheels in motion that culminated with him sending himself as his son to temporarily die in agony for something he set in motion.

I know this is not the topic of the thread but it only seem like it's you and I here so I'm game if you are.

Edited by Larni, : grammmarr


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:11 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:21 PM Larni has responded
 Message 486 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:23 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 487 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:31 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 488 of 591 (727389)
05-17-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:21 PM


Re: Satan
When ever I hear people say 'the point of the story' it makes me think that the actual meaning of the story is being reinterpreted to suit the reader.

Yahweh clearly says he created both goos and evil:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

We know Satan was Yahweh's implement:

Psalm 109:7 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

And he's also a kind of Angel lawyer:

Zechariah 3:1-2 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

So are we now to believe that Yahweh did not know Exactly what Satan would do? Yahweh had oversight: he knew exactly what would happen and let it happen. If he had not, the sacrifice of Jesus not be required.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:21 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:40 PM Larni has responded
 Message 492 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:48 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 489 of 591 (727390)
05-17-2014 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Satan
but God also knows the final verdict which is deletion of evil entirely and an eternal life with those who love God.

And yet he is content to allow the suffering and early death of the majority of humanity until he deems it is the right time to delete evil.

Whey not delete it immediately after Adam and Eve?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:31 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:42 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 493 of 591 (727394)
05-17-2014 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:40 PM


Re: Satan
You are not addressing my main point that Yahweh sets the rules of the game. He set Adam and Eve up to fail.

And he needed to do so otherwise there would be no need for Jesus to temporarily die in agony to resolve the situation he himself orchestrated.

If he had either not set things up so Adam and Eve would make such a huge mistake (that they had no ability to avoid as they had not the knowledge to make an informed decision) or deleted evil (as you suggest he is capable of) immediately none of the suffering of himself (as his son) would have been necessary.

All of the having to accept Jesus (God, according to Christians) as Saviour to avoid Hell would be unnecessary if Yahweh had decided to do things a different way (after all he had no constraints on his power).


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:40 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:54 PM Larni has responded
 Message 495 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:55 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 496 of 591 (727398)
05-17-2014 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:54 PM


Re: Satan
How did he set them up to fail?

Satan is under Yahweh's command (as is everything in creation) as such Yahweh could have said "stand down" and not tempted Eve (who had no capacity to know good from evil at that point in time).

Yahweh could have made it so Satan did not tempt Eve. Eve and Adam had no free will at that time as they had not partaken of the tree of knowledge; to understand the consequences of eating it and so where clearly unable to make an informed choice.

That is how he set them up to fail.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:54 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:04 PM Larni has responded
 Message 499 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:06 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 497 of 591 (727399)
05-17-2014 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:55 PM


Re: Satan
But is it not possible for that to be so without having the majority of humanity being needlessly punished?

After all the majority of people born will go to Hell.

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

And most simply for being born into the wrong culture, geographical region or time frame. and not having a chance to accept Jesus as Saviour:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So may people sent to Hell.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:55 PM Blue has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 501 of 591 (727405)
05-17-2014 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:04 PM


Re: Satan
Nobody is under God's command

Not true.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

If we do not follow his commands (all of them) we end up in the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If Yahweh was more loving he would not have made the world with sin in it. As I say: he set us up to fail. He caused creation to be like it is because he is in control of every possible parameter of reality.

He could magic away sin and retroactively save everyone who has ever existed: be he chooses not to.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:04 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:55 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 502 of 591 (727406)
05-17-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:16 PM


Re: Satan
Free agency has nothing to do with the tree of good/ evil.

Yes it does. It is not possible for Adam or Eve to make and informed choice without the knowledge that the tree of knowledge provided.

What Yahweh did was to give an innocent child a poisoned cake and became angry when the child ate the cake.

Not very clever for a god.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:53 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 516 of 591 (727477)
05-18-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:22 PM


Re: Satan
Yes God is running it. He makes both good and bad things happen.

Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Pretty clear, to me. God makes the good and bad things happen. Maybe he could stop creating evil?

Wouldn't that be nice?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:22 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-18-2014 2:43 PM Larni has responded
 Message 518 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:48 PM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 519 of 591 (727487)
05-18-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Thugpreacha
05-18-2014 2:43 PM


Re: Satan
Hi Phat, what you believe seems to be contradicted by the verse I quoted.

God very clearly says he is behind evil. If Yahweh compels us to do good that contradicts free will. If he is happy to compel people to do good why does he not compel people not to do evil?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-18-2014 2:43 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:57 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 521 of 591 (727489)
05-18-2014 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Blue
05-18-2014 2:48 PM


Re: Satan
You are wrong.

The verse says what it says. You appear to be reinterpreting the verse so as to suit your vision of your god's character.

But the bible is very clear and the context is clear: he is in charge of both good and evil and as such is the cause of both good and evil in the universe.

He admits it in the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How this be read in any other context than that given?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:48 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 3:02 PM Larni has responded

    
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