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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2077
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 211 of 591 (724947)
04-23-2014 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by MFFJM2
04-22-2014 7:28 AM


Re: Christ and satan and the discussion of their debated reality.
MMFJ2.

So, according to the statistics you, yourself mentioned, the average murder rate in the RSA was 31.00 in 2012. Sure, some areas experience more violent crime than others.

In the US, known for a very high crime rate, it was 4.7 per 100 000 in 2012. Sure some areas experience more violent crime than others.

Just look at those numbers. The average South African is 6 times more likely to be murdered than the average American.

A very good reason to go behind huge walls and electric fences and drones hovering around looking for criminals around the house.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by MFFJM2, posted 04-22-2014 7:28 AM MFFJM2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by MFFJM2, posted 04-23-2014 8:13 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 212 of 591 (724952)
04-23-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Pressie
04-23-2014 6:30 AM


Re: Christ and satan and the discussion of their debated reality.
The size of the country is also part of the equation, which was why I inlcuded Puerto Rico, among others...to show how the data can be tainted to make a political point.

Comparing the murder rate by country is ineffective in showing how dangerous a place is, because you aren't everywhere in the country. The specific area you're located is where you should be looking for data.

The murder rate in Detroit is 10 times the national average. That is a significant difference. What was the murder rate in Johannesburg or Cape Town..? Do the majority of murders happen in the cities, or rural areas..?


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 213 of 591 (725025)
04-23-2014 1:31 PM


Reasons For Belief
ringo writes:

The talking snake is quite obviously made up, though the motivation may be uncertain. So if there's obvious fiction on page two, why would we believe stories about Satan on page one-ninety-five or stories about Jesus on page three-sixty-three?

MFFJM2 writes:

Insofar as the Bible is concerned, which stories do you think aren't made up or invented (regardless of the motivation), and what is your reason for so believing..?

Saying that the stories are made up is only based on the idea that evidence is required. My basis for belief is based on experiences that I have had which were unexplainable. It is true that I have a confirmation bias towards faith/belief, and it is true that I would prefer that it be true. The idea of a God that has my back is compelling.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 3:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 215 by MFFJM2, posted 04-24-2014 6:50 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 229 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17451
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 214 of 591 (725050)
04-23-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Thugpreacha
04-23-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:

Saying that the stories are made up is only based on the idea that evidence is required.


Yes, evolution is "only" based on the evidence; gravity is "only" based on the evidence; all of reality is "only" based on the evidence.

Phat writes:

My basis for belief is based on experiences that I have had which were unexplainable.


If they're unexplainable, how is "God" an explanation? Why can't you just leave it at unexplainable?

Phat writes:

The idea of a God that has my back is compelling.


And yet the evidence is that no god has your back; no god is reliable. But that's "only" evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-23-2014 1:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-25-2014 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 215 of 591 (725074)
04-24-2014 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Thugpreacha
04-23-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
quote:
Saying that the stories are made up is only based on the idea that evidence is required. My basis for belief is based on experiences that I have had which were unexplainable. It is true that I have a confirmation bias towards faith/belief, and it is true that I would prefer that it be true. The idea of a God that has my back is compelling.

Your experiences, explained or unexplained, are completely separate from whether the stories in the Bible are true or not. If you don't care if the stories are true, then evidence is unnecessary.

Basing your belief in God on unexplained experiences is called the fallacy of ignorance, which means simply that you can't explain something and therefore you will make the assumption that something else caused it.

Isn't the idea of magical pixies having your back just as compelling..?

Why would the concept of the God of the Bible, who is cruel, immature, vain, and selfish (according to the stories about Him) provide you with any life-affirming support..?

I was specifically answering a post where the person posting said that there were stories that he didn't think were fictional. And that was why I asked which ones weren't fictional or made up, and how he knew they weren't fictional or made up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-23-2014 1:31 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 04-24-2014 11:58 AM MFFJM2 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17451
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 216 of 591 (725133)
04-24-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by MFFJM2
04-24-2014 6:50 AM


Re: Reasons For Belief
MFFJM2 writes:

Isn't the idea of magical pixies having your back just as compelling..?


Your back would get pretty dusty.

Edited by ringo, : pelling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by MFFJM2, posted 04-24-2014 6:50 AM MFFJM2 has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 217 of 591 (725299)
04-25-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
04-23-2014 3:12 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
ringo writes:

... the evidence is that no god has your back; no god is reliable.

If we took a poll using 2000 people who claimed to be saved and 2000 others not in that category, we would likely have contrarian views representing each corresponding sample. Technically, this would not support evidence, but it would explain why some think different from others.

Would we conclude confirmation bias, or would we admit that there was no explanation either way?


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 3:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 04-25-2014 1:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17451
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 218 of 591 (725302)
04-25-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Thugpreacha
04-25-2014 1:03 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:

Technically, this would not support evidence, but it would explain why some think different from others.


There's no mystery why some think differently from others. The ones who wish God had their backs are ignoring the evidence, which plainly shows that He doesn't. They even go so far as to make excuses for Him: "You can't tempt God." That's right; you can't tempt Him to have your back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-25-2014 1:03 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 219 of 591 (725381)
04-26-2014 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
04-25-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
The ones who wish God had their backs are ignoring the evidence, which plainly shows that He doesn't.
I fail to see any evidence. Which is not evidence of absence, in my book.

This is where so many people make a wrong turn and fail to ask for directions. Some assume that they know the territory.

I suppose, however, that technically they have as much right as I do to assume such things. They assume that the map is internal and subjective. I believe that the map is internal and imparted objectively by God.

They assume that in this vast universe---for now---humanity and human wisdom---relying on each other----is all we have.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 04-25-2014 1:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Omnivorous, posted 04-26-2014 5:16 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 221 by MFFJM2, posted 04-26-2014 11:59 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 04-28-2014 12:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 220 of 591 (725383)
04-26-2014 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
04-26-2014 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
ringo writes:

The ones who wish God had their backs are ignoring the evidence, which plainly shows that He doesn't.

Phat writes:

I suppose, however, that technically they have as much right as I do to assume such things. They assume that the map is internal and subjective. I believe that the map is internal and imparted objectively by God.

quote:
If I listened long enough to you
I'd find a way to believe that it's all true.

You may have equal rights, but you don't have equal grounds. God, according to the Bible, squashes the just and the unjiust alike like bugs, the tuned in and the tuned out. You can enjoy whatever private satisfactions you garner from believing in God, but you have no reason, even from your own Book, to expect better treatment than that afforded the flat-out evil. That is one reason prosperity churches are so [strikeout]obscene[/strikeout] weird.

You should re-read Job.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 221 of 591 (725414)
04-26-2014 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
04-26-2014 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat wrote:
quote:
I fail to see any evidence. Which is not evidence of absence, in my book.

Well, that's your book isn't it..? In the history of Lourdes, the place where the Virgin Mary supposedly appeared to a young Frenchwoman, there have been only 69 miraculous healings recognized by the Catholic Church. Approximately 5 million people visit Lourdes every year. It is said that 200 million people have visited Lourdes since 1860. Certainly, not all the people that visit Lourdes come there looking for a miracle, but even if only 1/10 of 1 percent came looking for a miracle, then the batting average for God is pretty dismal (assuming that the supposed healings are actually miraculous, which may not be true at all). One might also ask why God hates amputees, since no amputee has ever been healed.

quote:
This is where so many people make a wrong turn and fail to ask for directions. Some assume that they know the territory.

Ask directions of whom, you..? The lack of evidence for your God is deafening. There is as much evidence for Hercules as there is for your God. Even if the Bible, an anonymous and apocryphal book from antiquity, were true the God depicted in it is hardly worthy of worship. Did He have Job's back..? What about the daughter of Jephthah..?

quote:
I suppose, however, that technically they have as much right as I do to assume such things.

Technically, and in every other way, but you know that your assumptions are better founded, right..? Why is that..?

quote:
They assume that the map is internal and subjective. I believe that the map is internal and imparted objectively by God.

Except they have evidence to support their internal subjective map, and you have nothing but wild conjecture for your objective map imparted from your God.

quote:
They assume that in this vast universe---for now---humanity and human wisdom---relying on each other----is all we have.

Because that's what the evidence supports. Do you have some demonstrable evidence that shows something else..? The James Randi Educational Foundation has a $1,000,000 offer open to anyone who can demonstrate anything supernatural.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17451
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 222 of 591 (725555)
04-28-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
04-26-2014 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:

This is where so many people make a wrong turn and fail to ask for directions.


I'm talking about the people who do ask God for directions and don't get any - or get bad ones. You know very well that God doesn't give you what you ask for most of the time. So how can you say He has your back?

Phat writes:

They assume that in this vast universe---for now---humanity and human wisdom---relying on each other----is all we have.


It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based in the evidence. You can't rely on God to do it for you. Even Noah had to build his own ark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-26-2014 3:33 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-04-2014 3:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 223 of 591 (725932)
05-04-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
04-28-2014 12:12 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
ringo writes:

You know very well that God doesn't give you what you ask for most of the time.

Thats because by human nature we are at enmity with God. He only begins to give us the desires of our heart once our heart is transformed...by Him....and we no longer live for ourselves but for Him.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 04-28-2014 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 05-04-2014 3:56 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 231 by Blue, posted 05-04-2014 5:17 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17451
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 224 of 591 (725933)
05-04-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Thugpreacha
05-04-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
Phat writes:

He only begins to give us the desires of our heart once our heart is transformed...by Him....and we no longer live for ourselves but for Him.


So He only gives us what we want when we want what He wants to give us?

That's what I've been saying: He doesn't have our backs; He has His own.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-04-2014 3:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-04-2014 4:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 225 of 591 (725934)
05-04-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by ringo
05-04-2014 3:56 PM


Re: Reasons For Belief
you dont understand. Communion is better for all of us. He is not selfish about it. And its not something He makes happen. We ask for it. Its a joint decision.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 05-04-2014 3:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 05-04-2014 4:25 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 228 by MFFJM2, posted 05-04-2014 4:32 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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