Jesus Dying For Our Sins - Please HELP MY CONFUSION - Interesting

Ok, I'm new here but I have some questions. First, I don't understand the whole Jesus dying for our sins deal. I mean, from what I know and read, People aren't perfect, and thus break God's law, and God has to punish the sinner because if he doesn't, it's not a law. The punishment is death and seperation from God, so he created a divine human in Jesus to be perfect and be a sacrifice for people. Now, how does this work? Jesus spread the word of God and those who followed would go to heaven because of Jesus' sacrifice and their following of him. Was Jesus told to spread these teachings stragith from God? And exactly what were they - I mean, why did such a new religion and teachings need to be created? What was so wrong with the teachings before? I just don't get it.Also, before Jesus, if people aren't perfect, they would be sinners and seperated from God. So, this makes no sense. All these people then went to hell? And why then would God be ok with all of this for all those years and then bring Jesus? I'm very confused. Things were different before Jesus, so what exactly caused Jesus to be sent after so long?!Thanks.

User,You aren't alone. Why couldn't Jesus get a take out pizza for our sins? Or God make us sinless in the first place, or god just plain ol' ignore our sins. No one had to die. That God required someone to DIE is his problem, not ours.What about a big ol' knees up & lot's of beer for our sins? At least no one gets nailed to a plank. Well, maybe Bush, if we get VERY drunk.Mark

Some highlights that may clear up some things (to lurkers at least):1) Christ's Death for sins satisfies an holy God's vengence against the transgressors (you and I), according to the scriptures (NOT PHILIP): "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Rom 3.23) "None is good not one". Everyone has broken all the commandment(s). Willful Ignorance, Pride, and Wandering thoughts, (for example) remind me of the gravity of my own abomination before a holy and just Creator.2) The wages of sin is death and eternal seperation from God (i.e, 2nd death/Lake of Fire) (Romans 6.23)3) While we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly (you and I are the ungodly ones as per Romans 3.23 above)Christ's being sent out of heaven (out of God) then beaten to a pulp by us unsrupulous sinners and powers of darkness (demons) "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world" (Rev 13).4) On the 3rd day He rose again according to the scriptures and ascending to the right hand of God with all power and intercession for you and I TO CONFESS (before all). Speaking personally, I did not believe nor confess Christ would intercede for me in heaven until I first realized his coming down from heaven and being beaten to a pulp in my place.5) Eternal Deliverance is promised to anyone (here) who publicly confesses (i.e., on this forum even) that Jesus is the Christ-Lamb that died, was buried, and rose again (1John 2.24 and Romans 10.9-10). (Again, speaking from personal experience, once I was enabled to make that confession, I saw my Salvation clearly in this matter)

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so he created a divine human in Jesus to be perfect and be a sacrifice for people. Now, how does this work? Jesus spread the word of God and those who followed would go to heaven because of Jesus' sacrifice and their following of him. Was Jesus told to spread these teachings stragith from God?
=======Please do not consider my subject derrogatory, I simply want to take things one (or two) at a time.First, let me say that the Bible is clear that God did not "create" Jesus, but rather God came to the earth in human form, being the very Jesus Christ of the scriptures. (more on this in a sec.)The way it works, dealing only with the issue of sacrifice, is actually rather simple. Its a reference to an old Jewish custom as laid out by the law that a sacrifice for sins must be made. The jews were required to offer a lamb that was first born from its mother and was also without defect, blemish, or any shortcoming as a sacrifice for their sins, as a nation, once a year.Sin is a thing that is worthy of a penalty, true. And that penalty must be paid. Only a worthy sacrifice can be offered for sin. So if you were to offer your own life and blood for your sin, it would be unworthy because of the sin before God that you have committed. Here is the connection: The Bible says in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 (and I think around verse 19 or so) that God made "him to be sin who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."That means that God came to earth himself, being sinless, and took upon himself the penalty of every human being's sin (past, present, future for God is a limitless being). This action made it poosible for any person to receive this atoning death as a payment for their sins by confessing faith in the completed work of Christ as that payment.While Christ taught many things on the earth, the majority of them will find their subject matter in the statement of John 14:6, which is a statement by Jesus Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but by me." So his "teachings" were merely a propigation of the good news (gospel) of what Christ had done for all people.hope this helps clarifyRuss[This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-13-2003]

Hi, It is simple really, Jesus wasn't sent by anyone, he was a confidence trickster and a fake messiah. His followers made all the stories about him up so they wouldn't look total dorks in front of their friends when Jesus failed to achieve a single thing. Well, apparently Jesus descended into Hell to free these 'souls' from 'prison', so the myth goes anyway.Brian.

As opposed to a real messiah? You seem to know a good deal more about Jesus than one might expect given the paucity of facts. What brought you to fabricate this particular persona?

quote:

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It is simple really, Jesus wasn't sent by anyone, he was a confidence trickster and a fake messiah. His followers made all the stories about him up so they wouldn't look total dorks in front of their friends when Jesus failed to achieve a single thing.

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What is to back this ignorant claim up exactly?------------------
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." -JesusJohn 3:3This is Prophecyexclaimed, new name.

What is to back this ignorant claim up exactly?

Actually there were 3 major factors that all lined up at the same time which made the time that Jesus appeared the perfect or most oportune time in history.First, the greek culture had spread over most of the known world at that time and along with the greek culture came it's language. By the time Jesus appeared, most Jews spoke Greek along with the non-Jews, so this was the closest that the civilized world had ever been to a common language since the Tower of Babel.Second, the Greek language is the most descriptive language known and if you were going to convey information from a creator (Jesus) to his creation, then you'ld want to employ the most acurate communication method available.Third, the Romans had conquered this same civilized world and had built a vast network of roads for inter state commerence. It's the existance of these roads and the relative safety of the day to travel them because of the protection of the Roman army which would make the desimenation of the Gospel highly efficient. You'll find that the original apostels and diciples had sperad the Gospel to the known world in only 40 years according to the new Testament. Quite a feat for not having any cell phones, TV or automobiles.

Ok, then, why didn't he wait until the year 2000? Then his followers would not only have Roman roads, but an interstate system, jet travel, English far more widespread than ancient Greek, and more.(Btw - the protection of the Roman army? The Romans didn't like what they saw as cults that undermined their authority).------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Lizard Breath writes:

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Second, the Greek language is the most descriptive language known

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(*chuckle*)Tell me you don't really believe this.Hint: The language with the largest vocabulary in the world is English.Now, it's true that English didn't exist at the time, but your point is that Jesus came when he did because it was the perfect time. English is more widespread.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

If I may be so bold I would like to direct the comments back to the questions at hand: the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and the propigation of his teaching,=======
All these people then went to hell?
=======What needs to be understood here is that God did not "come to his senses" during the roman empire and say "Hey, I have to do something about the sins of humanity."The scripture is clear that the plan of redemption through Christ's atoning death was developed before time began and is for all time. This seems to cause confusion when the people under the Old Covenant (Old Testament) are considered. But this discrepancy is no discrepancy. Beginning with Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, and going through the rest of the Old Testament, there is a clear promise that a redeemer will be given.Now remember, the Bible says that Christ's sacrifice paid the sin debt of all humanity. The case then is, and this is apparent from scripture, that the requirement of the Old Testament believer was to believe on that forthcoming redeemer. The only difference between them and us, really, is that we have that Redeemer revealed in the incarnation of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ.So then, to answer your question, albeit not briefly, the only people who ever go to hell are those who reject the Messiah that God has provided to remove the sin debt of each individual human.again, hope this helps for clarification concerning what the Bible says on the issue.Russ

apostolosYou state:
"the only people who ever go to hell are those who reject the Messiah that God has provided to remove the sin debt of each individual human."So does this imply if christians were to never speak of the messiah then all those people who never hear of him will not go to hell?

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So does this imply if christians were to never speak of the messiah then all those people who never hear of him will not go to hell?
=======I want to tell you that I genuinely appreciate your question because it is a very good one. I hope you will be satisfied with a simple answer. I can provide a more complex one but that would require more time (which doesn't bother me the slightest, as long as there is an interest in a complex answer over a simple one).My statement may ~appear~ to imply that but it actually does not. This is because it is a question of the character of God, not of the actions of Christians.To state it simply, it is God himself who works around, in, and through man in various ways (most commonly by what is referred to as conscience) to bring individuals to a knowledge that they have violated an absolute standard of behavior. (I understand this could take a wild turn into many other arguments but I hope it will stay on the issue at hand.) While I am not trying to prove that last point, let me state, as an example, our own personal knowledge of wrongdoing that we are guilty of committing.The point is that because of the fall of man (Genesis 3), all people have inherited a propensity to do sin. We are tempted, and because we are outside of God (in a manner of speaking), we are powerless to resist and therefore give in, breaking God's absolute standard for human behavior.Now the payment for that sin debt is Jesus Christ, the son of God, being very God, who took upon himself all of man's sin debt as he went to the grave, and left it there when he rose again on the third day. The question is can a person avoid hell because they never heard about the messiah? *The answer is an absolute and unquestionable no. The reason is that beginning in Genesis 3:15, God provided a promise of a redeemer to all people (Adam and Eve at the time). That same promise, through the remainder of the Old Testament and even into the New, went out to all people throughout the earth universally.*This is perfectly harmonious with God's character, and I will demonstrate that by quoting a single verse:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." 2Peter 3:9The point then, is that God has provided for that which he desires first and foremost: the redemption of all created people to himself, the Creator. While I can not delineate the exact manner of this in every instance, let me say that Romans Chapter 1 stands as a very strong testimony to this fact (especially verses 16-22).Hope this answers your question, and if not please let me know how else I may be of assistance.RussP.S. - the section set off by asterisks is something I have dealt with a little more specifically in the posts I put up in the other thread I am involved in. Just click my username to go to them. I think they may help for clarification.[This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-13-2003]

Hi, Yep, obviously the real Messiah (with a capital 'M') has not been born yet, or if he has been born he has not made himself nkow to us. Well I am in possession of facts not known to anyone else. Contemporary accounts from eyewitnesses who knew these things about Jesus. However I have lost the special glasses that you need in order to be able to read these acounts, which are written on tablets that can only be seen by someone wearing these special glasses.Brian.