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Author Topic:   There you Go,YECs...biblical "evidence" of "flat earth beliefs"
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 815 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 226 of 243 (391609)
03-26-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:18 PM


Re: On language
and the hebrew word chuwg translated indicates a spherical object.
According to whom? To you? Are you a ancient Hebrew scholar? To Mr Strong that wrote the big Concordance? Was he not post-Copernicus, and knew that the Earth was a sphere? Isn't he the one who gives "sphere" or "ball" as the translation of the Hebrew "dwr" somewhere in Isaiah?
Show me one other example in the OT or anywhere in ancient Hebrew where "chuwg" must mean "sphere." It meant "circle" here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:18 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 227 of 243 (391610)
03-26-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:59 PM


You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
This thread is NOT about the teachings of Jesus. They are irrelevant to this thread, unimportant and unrelated. It is about whether or not the authors of parts of the Bible thought that the Earth was flat.
That is the topic.
AbE:
One other thing. The Bible is and was written by man. There is NOT even one accepted Canon so there is not even one Bible.
Man wrote the Bible.
GOD's word is the universe we live in. That GOD wrote, not man.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:59 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:10 PM jar has replied

  
Mikael Fivel
Member (Idle past 6169 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 03-23-2007


Message 228 of 243 (391616)
03-26-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jar
03-26-2007 1:16 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
"One other thing. The Bible is and was written by man. There is NOT even one accepted Canon so there is not even one Bible.
Man wrote the Bible.
GOD's word is the universe we live in. That GOD wrote, not man."
yes, the bible was written by man, but it was inspired by God. i have an older study on this i'll have to dig up, regarding the translation of the original word for inspired, which happened to mean "breathed out" in, from what i remember, was either aramaic or greek. and no, the universe is not God's word, nowhere in the bible does it say that.
but to you, providing evidences from people in the bible who thought the earth was flat may be a key evidence for ignorance, as you may say, is important. the weird thing to notice is that NOT all of the people in the bible believed in God, or Jesus. the original statement of "ends of the earth" was made NOT by a Godly man, but a king named Nebuchadnezzar, it just so happens that one of God's favored people had interactions with this man and interpreted his dreams. as david restated his dream, he did not use the term "ends of the earth" he used "visible to the whole world" which could have meant to it's people in SIGHT or in mind, such as the difference between emotional geography and physical geography (that you know WHERE something is based on an event, but you can't physically point it out on a map). the people in the bible who you are quoting to have said anything about a flat earth, were people living NOT OF God, but of the world. so yes, people in the bible believed the earth was flat, but the key is, that it wasn't people of God. they were worldly kings and rulers just like today. the only difference is that kings and rulers of today NOW know that its not flat. there is no evidence of GOD saying the earth was flat, nor is there evidence of the flat earth concept being of any importance to God's followers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 1:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 2:34 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 229 of 243 (391622)
03-26-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 2:10 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
I'm sorry but that is simply more jabberwocky.
It has NOTHING to do with the thread or the topic. Sheesh.
The question is not whether those folk saying such things were believers in the Biblical God, and there are many many such examples by folk that believed in the God of the Bible saying similar incorrect things, but what the folk of the period thought. And the people of the period, whether they believed in God or not, the people that wrote the Bible were just plain wrong. They did NOT understand that the earth is a sphere, in orbit around the sun, that the sky is not a dome and many other things.
i have an older study on this i'll have to dig up, regarding the translation of the original word for inspired, which happened to mean "breathed out" in, from what i remember, was either aramaic or greek. and no, the universe is not God's word, nowhere in the bible does it say that.
Look on your keyboard. I bet you will find two shift keys and an enter key. They are used to make capital letters and to provide breaks between paragraphs or thoughts. Try using them. It will make your posts easier to read.
It does not MATTER whether the Bible says that the Universe is God's word. That is irrelevant and immaterial to this thread.
God created the Universe. Man did not.
Man wrote the Bible. God did not.
It really is that simple.
The fact is that when it comes to describing the world we live in, the Bible is wrong.
but to you, providing evidences from people in the bible who thought the earth was flat may be a key evidence for ignorance, as you may say, is important.
Yes, sorry but it is evidence of ignorance. What is wrong with admitting that? All that it means is that they knew less about the universe than we know today. And we too will be seen as ignorant as we and those who come after us learn even more.
Ignorance is not a fault. It only becomes an issue when it becomes Willful Ignorance such as taught and practiced by today's Christian Cult of Ignorance. It only becomes a problem when Christians try to force ignorance into the education system, try to teach simply wrong and false concepts like Biblical Creationism, ID, Young Earth or that there was a world-wide flood.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:10 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 4:57 PM jar has replied

  
Mikael Fivel
Member (Idle past 6169 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 03-23-2007


Message 230 of 243 (391648)
03-26-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
03-26-2007 2:34 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
"The fact is that when it comes to describing the world we live in, the Bible is wrong."
the Bible is not wrong... and we don't know what they meant back then when they said circle, by scientific standards. and as much as you think they were ignorant, they really weren't...
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
//they knew the earth hung in space
Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
//scientists only figured that one (the whole 'wind has weight') out about 300 years ago...
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
//describing the recurculation of water...
they knew LOTS of things pertaining to science that took scientists hundreds of years to figure out, instead of just reading the book! they weren't ignorant!
how about hydrothermal vents?
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 2:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 5:26 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 231 of 243 (391655)
03-26-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 4:57 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
You just keep digging a deeper hole, don't you?
You just love to make stuff up.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
Yet another example of their ignorance. The Earth is not hung on anything.
The North dos not stretch out over empty space.
Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
Looks like some folk today are as ignorant about science as they were back then.
Wind does not have weight.
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
Gotta call bullshit on that one and it is a classic one used by the Christian Cult of Ignorance. It is not describing the hydrocycle.
they knew LOTS of things pertaining to science that took scientists hundreds of years to figure out, instead of just reading the book! they weren't ignorant!
More utter bullshit.
how about hydrothermal vents?
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
yet more drivel from the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
That is just another example of mental masturbation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 4:57 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 5:48 PM jar has replied

  
Mikael Fivel
Member (Idle past 6169 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 03-23-2007


Message 232 of 243 (391659)
03-26-2007 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
03-26-2007 5:26 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Yet another example of their ignorance. The Earth is not hung on anything.
thats what the scripture said. i don't get your point.
yet more drivel from the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
wow... you're such a nice guy. by the way, you didn't explain anything... you were simply slamming down my posts. get smart next time, genius. i can get mean too :-)
you didn't even attempt to look that stuff up did you?
///once again. water cycle.
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
don't cuss at me, bud, it doesn't make you look good. nor does it help prove what little point you had in that last post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 5:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 6:05 PM Mikael Fivel has replied
 Message 239 by Equinox, posted 03-27-2007 12:36 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 233 of 243 (391664)
03-26-2007 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 5:48 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Again, you are still missing the whole point of the thread.
You are taking modern translations based on modern usages and trying to shoehorn the ancient texts in.
Look at the same text from the KJV which was written before we understood how the system worked.
27For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
Just because we are less ignorant than the authors, there is no reason to pretend that they knew something they didn't.
The message of the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not the authors were accurate when talking about the real world. The Bible is not a science text.
The topic of this thread is whether or not the authors of parts of the Bible thought that the earth was flat.
They did.
Pulling out parts from the Bible and then trying to redact them into modern concepts is silly and pointless. The authors of the Bible were simply ignorant about how the universe operates.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 5:48 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 6:29 PM jar has replied

  
Mikael Fivel
Member (Idle past 6169 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 03-23-2007


Message 234 of 243 (391668)
03-26-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
03-26-2007 6:05 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
The Bible is not a science text.
yeah, so why would you test it with science? makes about as much sense as testing my pizza with logic. lol
The topic of this thread is whether or not the authors of parts of the Bible thought that the earth was flat.
They did.
Pulling out parts from the Bible and then trying to redact them into modern concepts is silly and pointless. The authors of the Bible were simply ignorant about how the universe operates.
uh huh, and i'm not disagreeing with you on them thinking the earth was flat, i was saying that they weren't as ignorant as you thought. which is why i stated those scriptures... that came from NKJV, which only READS easier than KJV... heck if you wanna say something original texts, why don't you just pull out the lot of them in hebrew? i bet they say something different about the earth than we think! especially considering the meanings of words change in time (gay, for instance), so circle back then MEANT something entirely, i'll bet.
Edited by Mikael Fivel, : i had the reference for the other word, but not on hand right now

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 6:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 6:37 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied
 Message 236 by ringo, posted 03-26-2007 6:45 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 235 of 243 (391671)
03-26-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 6:29 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
uh huh, and i'm not disagreeing with you on them thinking the earth was flat, i was saying that they weren't as ignorant as you thought.
LOL
If they thought the earth was flat then they were ignorant of the fact that it is not.
Sheesh. Thank you for finally agreeing that they were ignorant.
Edited by jar, : fix sentence

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 6:29 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 236 of 243 (391673)
03-26-2007 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 6:29 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Mikael Fivel writes:
makes about as much sense as testing my pizza with logic.
If you have a Health Department where you live, your pizza has been tested with logic. Everything that comes into contact with your pizza has been tested for microorganisms that you can't see, that the authors of the Bible didn't know about, but that logic says must exist.
Logic is our only point of contact with the real world.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 6:29 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6161 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 237 of 243 (391706)
03-26-2007 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
03-26-2007 11:58 AM


Re: then what is it?
quote:
They simply happen to be WRONG.
This is one of those statements that make me 'urky'. In other words, a feeling difficult to put into words.
Yeah, 5,000 years ago they simply happened to be wrong. 5,000 years from now, futureman will say the same about you, laughing his ass off. I hope someone will have mercy on you and say........'well, he did the best he could with what he had'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 03-26-2007 11:58 AM jar has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6161 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 238 of 243 (391707)
03-26-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:03 PM


Re: then what is it?
quote:
always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
So you think this part cannot stand on its own and describe what I intended?
OK!
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote...again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:03 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5222 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 239 of 243 (391787)
03-27-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 5:48 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Cool! You proved that the Holy Scriptures are from God because it displays accurate science centuries before anyone could have known it! Geez, for all the talk of whether or not it’s by God, we should show those Atheists the verses you pointed out so they’ll believe.
We need to make a list of those. Here’s what we have so far that you mentioned:
Job 28:25 Weight of wind
Job 26:7 Earth Hangs on nothing
Ecclesiastes 1:7 & Job 36:27-29 water cycle
Genesis 7:11 & Job 38:16 Hydrothermal vents
I found some more for our list:
quote:
A sound heart is life to the body,
But envy is rottenness to the bones.
Pr 14:30 - shows what medicine has proven, that our attitudes affect our health.
quote:
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
K 34:40 Shows modern Astronomy
quote:
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
E 1:6
quote:
And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of God Who perfecteth all things.
P 27:88 Proven by Plate Tectonics
I bet there’s more. I’ll keep looking.
Have a fun day-
-Equinox
Edited by Equinox, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 5:48 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Equinox, posted 04-04-2007 4:02 PM Equinox has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5222 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 240 of 243 (393365)
04-04-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Equinox
03-27-2007 12:36 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Hmmm, looks like Mikael is gone. Too bad. I wanted to discuss with him the merits of these proofs of science from the holy scriptures - especially since this holy scripture list includes verses from the Qu’ran. Apparently God must be speaking to many different religions, if one takes these vague statements as meaning anything.
Have a fun day everyone-
-Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Equinox, posted 03-27-2007 12:36 PM Equinox has not replied

  
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