Evidence of Jesus in the entire bible.

I'm using multiple translations. I usually quote the NIV, unless it is important to use a different version.

Please do. I will wait and see ...You have not responded to my post #113. Does this mean that you agree with my assessment: that Zechariah is talking about God the Father (Jehovah) rather than God the Son (Jesus)?------------------
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Hello folks,

• ouch...wudeyeverdooda-u

• I'm glad we agree ...{that the readers SHOULD investigate the reference}
• Because it { the abomination that causes desolation} could not have, when following the text, applied to the disciples.

• What is JC getting at when he tells us, So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation.’ This is certainly in regards to a specific sign and reference point for determining the timing the Second Coming. That sign is the the abomination that causes desolation".
• Not only does JC refer to the abomination that causes desolation, but we're also told to find its description in the prophecies of Daniel.
• Then JC commands us to understand what he's talking about. I located Daniel's first reference to the the abomination that causes desolation, in the 'Seventy sevens' prophecy...

• The next part of Daniel’s ‘Seventy sevens’ prophecy has the pronouns ‘he’ and ‘him’, so we refer back to the previous proper noun the ruler..
• We find out that this is the Antichrist as we examine Daniel’s other prophecies concerning this ruler.
• The one who will exalt and magnify himself above every god is described in considerable detail. Look for identifying characteristics as you read this next prophecy...

• "--let the reader understand--", is specified repeatedly (Matthew 24, Mark 13), when in reference to the 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel, leading to believe this insertion by the authors is more than random.
• Please, also note that Paul, like JC, uses this event as a reference point to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.
• Paul describes the abomination that causes desolation when he says, he [Antichrist] sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
• Notice that Paul uses the same expression as Daniel when describing the Antichrist, saying he will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped. These similarities certainly refer to the same leader. Compare the two and see for yourself.

• Upon this revelation, I assume that JC wants to be sure we can understand about this important event. If we understand ‘the abomination that causes desolation’, the Second Coming will not surprise us.
• It becomes easier to understand it this way when considering JC's commands to the disciples whereas he states numerous times,

• Please explain how the disciples could witness, within their lifetime obviously, 'the abomination that causes desolation {which refers to an anti - X} ,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel, if JC specifically told them, "if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' DO NOT BELIEVE IT.".
• Did you catch that. He told them not to believe in any of the false Christs and false prophets that they saw or heard about during their lifetime.
• Why would JC tell them not to believe in any false Christs, IF the genuine Man of Lawlessness would rise to power and attack Jerusalem within their generation. He wouldn't.
• The 'abomination that causes desolation’, or the rise to power of the genuine false messiah, which is indicated as a sign of the fulfillment of prophecy...could not have truly happened within the generation of the disciples.
• The command for the disciples to not believe in or not be deceived, in terms of the false Christ, is recorded at least six times in the New Covenant, and again in 2 Thessalonians.

And, as always, I thank you all for your open minds and constructive criticisms...------------------

Som, your essential argument is to intepret Daniel to contradict what
is said in Mark 13 and then to conclude from that that Mark 13 doesn't mean what it says. I thought that you said that you were going to produce a REASONABLE argument ?Going on to your actual points.I agree that the disciples could not see the actual "abomination" mmentioned in Daniel - because it happened two hundred years earlier (168 BC). So naturally I interpret Jesus reference as being to to another similar event. This explains how the apostles could witness it within their lifetime (as well as the actual event I mentioned Caligula ordered that his statue should be set up for worship within the Temple).So I don't have a problem there - but you still have a problem with the meaning of Mark 13:30 which you seem to be dodging.To go to the specific points:1) You don't explain what the "sevens" are. In fact given one of the three possible start dates, and assuming that they refer to periods of seven years (which is very widely agreed to), it works out that the 69th fits in around the time of Jesus. The other dates put it earlier (the most likely of the three) or later - but not be nearly enough for you. While there are problems for every interpretation, they are worst for you as you need to explain a far greater discrepency.2) The ruler of Daniel is the Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes who did indeed halt the sacrifices and set up an altar to Zeus in the Temple and all the rest of it.3) Your reference to Thessalonians shows that Paul was intepreting Daniel as referring to some future event - but not one in the distant future as you would have it. There were at least some disciples still alive at that time.4) Your final points all quote instructions made directly to the disciples, and therefore assume that they WOULD be alive to see them.
Matthew 24:23-25 and 26-27 refer to events AFTER the "Abomination" is set up - so does Mark 13:21-23. And you don't explain how these instructions would not apply if the disciples would be alive when the anti-Christ appears - do you mean to suggest that Jesus would have told them TO follow the anti-Christ ?WHY do you think that an instruction NOT to follow false Christs who will appear AFTER the disciples see that the anti-Christ has set up the "abomination" means that the disciples will not be alive to see those events ?As predicted your "reasonable" argument distorts the text by deliberately ignoring the context which clearly implies that the disciples WILL be alive to see events you attribute to the time of the anti-Christ.

Helo guys,i am back.
I have already said this to you but it was difficult to understand.
Genesis 3:22-24
Angels at the garden east->Demons
Flame sword->Enemies of Israel
Garden of Eden->Canaan
Way to the tree of life->Davids lineage(dimension of time).
Tree of Life-Jesus Christ on the cross(wood).
Apocalipse 22:1-6
River of life->Holy Spirit
City->Church
12 varieties of leafs->The disciples.
The evidence that Jesus is the tree of life is in Jonh 15
The leafs could represent not only the 12 but all the christians.
The river has to go and fill the entire world-Evangelization-and the leafs have to flow with it.Without the Holy Spirit evangelization is impossible.We have to flow with it into the world to get people healed.We (christians) have life in ourselves.

Is this your literal interpretation? Cuz it sounds like metaphor to me...

• It is good you believe that the disciples could not see the actual "abomination" mentioned in Daniel, because this is true; although, for different reasons than you state.

• These early interpretations concerning Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes halting the sacrifices and setting up an altar to Zeus in the Temple, as well as Caligula ordering that his statue be set up for worship within the Temple have been long discredited.
• Which is no loss, considering they never met the criteria of actual human worship explicitly described in Daniel. But these events have not been researched in vain. They have presented great insight as to the identities of the "false" messiahs JC spoke so often about.

• If it appeared that way to you, you have my apologies. It would seem most reasonable to think "this generation" would refer to one in the future that cannot be calculated.
• No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son...Matt 24:36
• Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour...Matt 25:13
• No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father...Mark 13:32
• Consider what JC tells the disciples...

quote:

---

Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but YOU WILL NOT SEE IT. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."...Luke 17:22-25

---

• He didn't imply much there. JC tells them that they won't see "the days of the Son of Man".
• Then he tells them not to go running off after after any one claiming to be Christ {impling the genuine man of lawlessness wouldn't be around for them to see}.
• Then he just straight out tells them that before anything can be fulfilled, he must first be rejected by THIS GENERATION {of the disciples} and suffer many things.

• It is widely interpreted that the seventy "seven"s refer to weeks of years. But this is irrelevant, as even Paul, a prominent orthodox Jew of the time, understood that Daniels' prophecy had not yet been fulfilled.
• "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...,"...2 Thess. 2:1-3
• Paul had insight into the prophecies of his ancients; as he abode strictly to the Law concerning all things {studying Hebrew scripture}.

• It is evident that Paul was intepreting Daniel as referring to some future event...unfortunately we cannot no the day or the hour, regardless how distant..."No one knows about that day{the day of the fulfillment of "these" things} or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."....Mark 13:31-33
• And if any disciples were alive at the time of the event, it would contradict what JC told them concerning it.
• JC clearly indicated to them not to go running off after after any one claiming to be Christ...they won't see "the days of the Son of Man"...and before anything can be fulfilled, he must first be rejected by THIS GENERATION

• Please take another look at those specific quotes...you can, by no way other than ignorance, claim they indicate the disciples would see the genuine false Christ.
• if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' DO NOT BELIEVE IT it....Matt 24:26-27
• Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many....Such things must happen, but the end is still to come,"...Mark 13:5-7
• if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ !' or, 'Look, there he is!' DO NOT BELIEVE IT. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect...... I have told you everything ahead of time. "Mark 13:21-23
• ...you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but YOU WILL NOT SEE IT. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them....first he {Son of Man} must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation."...Luke 17:22-25
• ....we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter....saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...,"...2 Thess. 2:1-3

• These events obviously precede the abomination...
• And JC would not tell them to dismiss all messiahanic claims, if indeed, "the" man of lawlessness was to appear on the world stage within any of thier lifetimes.

• It would seem to be that JC was telling them they would only witness false anti's. Basically he is informing them that any claim of someone to be the anti, that they see or here of, will be fraudulent.

------------------

Much about Daniel is definitely about Antiochus IV Epiphanes - the historical information matches too closely for there to be any other alternative. It is simply false to claim that the idea that the "Abomination" of Daniel refers to the altar of Zeus has been discredited.You STILL have not provided and adequate explanation of Mark 13:30 - from what you write it seems that you really do assume that Jesus was making the trivial and pointless claim that the "generation that sees the end will see the end".Luke 17:21-25 does not necessarily indicate that the disciples will not see the Second Coming at all - only that they will long for it at a time that false Christs arise. And even if it did not that would not change the fact that Mark has them surviving until within a year - likely no more than a few months - of the Second Coming.Nor does Jesus being rejected by "this generation" contradict my reading. Indeed, why should the "this generation" of Luke 17 be read differently than the "this generation" of Mark 13 ? There is no contradiction between a generation rejecting Jesus and - decades later- witnessing the end of the world.Nowehre in the Gospels is there any idea of a "false false Christ" - the anti-Christ is simply the greatest of the false Christs, not somehow "genuine" where the others are fakes. There is NOTHING that indicates that the disciples would not be alive for the time of the anti-Christ - and arguing otherwise requires dealing with what the Bible actually says - instead of calling me ignorant for preferring what the Bible says over what you would LIKE it to say.As for the idea that Matthew 24:23-27 and Mark 13:21-23 refer to events BEFORE the "abomination" is set up, all I can do is tell you to READ the relevant chapters. In BOTH the setting up of the "abomination" is the START of the events described in the immediately following verses. It is obvious that they take place AFTER the "abomination" is set up, and your claim to the contrary is obviously false.I am so sorry that the Bible doesn't say what you want it to, but is that any reason to misrepresent it ? Why not just say that the Bible is wrong ?

Hello, Although much about Daniel is most certainly about Antiochus IV Epiphanes, I cannot find within me the heart to compromise the text which says, "He will exalt and magnify himself above every god..." , when it well established Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes set up an altar to Zeus in the Temple, not himself. The generation who witnesses the signs of the times will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Have you, yet, learned the lesson of the fig tree? The is an admirable verse, and due to its simplicity, very insightful. Please show me where Mark has them surviving until within a year or likely no more than a few months, of the Second Coming. This would be very interesting. The generation of Mark 13:30 certainly refers to generation occupying the earth during the days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again. As well, JC certainly suffered many things and was rejected by {but not limited to} his generation. The greatest of the false Christs { the anti-Christ } will certainly allow people to worship him, and not a pagan god or a statue. This is indicated clearly in Daniel my good friend. Well, PaulK, all I can tell you is that the Son of Man in his day will be like lightning which flashes and lights up the sky. Just like lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man. So if per chance you learn the lesson of the fig tree, or notice any of the signs of fulfillment similar to what the Bible describes; don't believe the Messiah is here unless everybody see him at the same time. I thank you for your consolation; and also, the challenge of your debate is admirable. I truly thank you.------------------

About a year ago, Time Magazine ran an article about the Second Coming and it's appeal to the general public (most of it was about the Left Behind series). Two weeks later, in the letters I noticed someone had written in arguing that all the prophecies in the New Testament had been fulfilled in A.D. 70, claiming the "this generation" was meant literally.I don't really believe that the Second Coming was in A.D. 70, but I have looked at the website of the guy who wrote in, and it is fairly convincing at first. Here's a link:
Home | Prophecy Reformation Institute
The website is very much so a Christian website, just with a view different from most Christian fundamentalists about a few things. It cites scripture (mainly the gospels) to help prove its point, by the way. Anyway, I just thought it might be interesting to a few of you.

At first I thought that your fingers had slipped on the keyboard, but then ... I shouldn't be surprised. Obfuscation appears to be your forte.BTW: You continue to ignore my previous post re: the prophecy of Zechariah. Do you understand it better now? Or do you want to examine another so-called prophecy of the second coming?About the Abomination of Desolation: About that generation: Mark reads: they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. Mk. 9:1The kingdom is at hand: It is probably a waste of my time to respond to your silliness but the onlookers deserve to see an alternative set of unmistakebly clear scripture.------------------
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So, you've settled on the usual "generation who see the signs" interpretation which you rejected earlier. Are you still claiming that the disciples would see the signs or have you decided to drop that as well ?As ofr Mark as I have already pointed out 13:14-23 imply that the disciples will survive until at least a few months of the Second Coming. They are given instrucitosn relating to the time directly before the Second Coming, beginning with the setting up of the "abomination", implying that they will be alive. Mark 13:18 implies that that time will last less than a year.On to Daniel. Since Antiochus IV Epiphanes issued coins picturing himself as Zeus there is rather less difference between an altar to himself and one to Zeus than you might think. Espeially when his title "Epiphanes" refers to the appearance of a God ("Epiphany" is form the same word).As to your suggestion that Daniel 9 does not refer to Antiochus despite the clear similarities between the prophecy and the events of the time of Antiochus there are any number of problems with such a view. For a start there are clear liks to other prophecies in Daniel which are certainly about Antiochus - like that in chapter 8. There is the fact that Daniel 9 is about the Babylonian exile and what will follow it - which also points out Antiochus. Given the number of references to Antiochus in Daniel it is implausible he would be left out here - and even more implausible that so much of the history of Jerusalem would also be omitted. Your reading leaves out not only Antiochus but the Romans (destroyed the city and the Temple), the Muslims (built a Mosque on the Temple Mount - possibly on the ruins of the Temple), the Crusades (more battles over Jerusalem) and everything since.