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Author Topic:   Who is Jesus Christ to you?
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 82 (37024)
04-14-2003 9:48 PM


Who is Jesus Christ to you?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 04-14-2003 10:33 PM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 3:09 AM drummachine has not yet responded
 Message 5 by compmage, posted 04-15-2003 4:06 AM drummachine has not yet responded
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 82 (37028)
04-14-2003 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by drummachine
04-14-2003 9:48 PM


Some guy who lived a long time ago, had some teachings that were pretty smart, pissed off some important leaders, and got killed. 60 years later, when the religious leaders in charge noticed his movement was stealing their members, they made up some stories about how he was the son of their god and had come back from the dead. This way they convinced the followers of Jesus that they had been a part of the old church all along.

Then they wrote all this down in the bible, made up some miracles, put words in Jesus's mouth to keep themselves in power, and did pretty well for themselves.

So, who was he? I wish I could say a great thinker, but honestly, with so little (if any) of his true message recorded, no one can know. If I had a time machine, though, I'd love to find out what he really had to say.

But if he really was so great, why didn't he write his own book? Authorship wasn't unknown at the time.

------------------
Epimenedes Signature: This is not a signature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by drummachine, posted 04-14-2003 9:48 PM drummachine has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 82 (37044)
04-15-2003 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by drummachine
04-14-2003 9:48 PM


Jesus
[warning: might be offensive]

A messenger of Allah to the children of Israel (exclusively), born of a virgin, had followers from the poor and 12 disciples (the Hawariyyun), the 13th being Judas Iscariot who betrayed him and gave him away to Romans. He did not die on the cross but Allah lifted him to heaven, and he will return in end-times as Imam Mahdi, the leader of the faithful, broke the cross, and converted Christians to Islam.

However, Paul, a former Jew, coopted his teachings and preached to non-Israelites, something that Jesus himself did not do. Later, as a result from the dispute of two theologians, Arius & Athanasius, the Consul of Nicaea declared Jesus as God. And so the trinitarian heresy begins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by drummachine, posted 04-14-2003 9:48 PM drummachine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 3:37 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded
 Message 7 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 4:14 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 4 of 82 (37045)
04-15-2003 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
04-15-2003 3:09 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
A messenger of Allah to the children of Israel (exclusively),

LMAO, lol.. man people really do have a sense of humor on this site! I love it!

quote:
He did not die on the cross but Allah lifted him to heaven, and he will return in end-times as Imam Mahdi, the leader of the faithful, broke the cross, and converted Christians to Islam.

"Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground"
LOL... oh, man! this is too much!

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 04-15-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 3:09 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by compmage, posted 04-15-2003 4:08 AM THEONE has responded

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 3440 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 5 of 82 (37047)
04-15-2003 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by drummachine
04-14-2003 9:48 PM


I am undecided as too whether Jesus, the man, existed. I have however seen no evidence that Jesus, the Christian man-God, is anything more than a myth.

Given convincing evidence I am more than willing to re-evaluate my position.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by drummachine, posted 04-14-2003 9:48 PM drummachine has not yet responded

    
compmage
Member (Idle past 3440 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 6 of 82 (37048)
04-15-2003 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by THEONE
04-15-2003 3:37 AM


Re: Jesus
TheOne writes:

LMAO, lol.. man people really do have a sense of humor on this site! I love it!

I don't think that this was ment as a joke.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 3:37 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 4:17 AM compmage has not yet responded

    
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 7 of 82 (37049)
04-15-2003 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
04-15-2003 3:09 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
However, Paul, a former Jew, coopted his teachings and preached to non-Israelites,

I think that appeal of Jesus was already out there in the pagan world. Greek mythology already had Prometeuth. A Titan who broght light to humans even though it was forbiden. As a consequence, Zeus chained Prometheus to a rock where each day an eagle pecked out his liver (which regenerated itself each night).

So what pattern do we see here? A Godly being sacraficing himself for the people and being punished for it?

Oh, man, I can just imagine the pagans diving into this Jesus concept. After all, how do you relate to some invisible G-d, whose name you're not allowed to pronounce? Well, have no fear, Super Paul is here! (I'm really tempted to say Super Jew is here, but I guess that would be streching it)


This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 8 of 82 (37050)
04-15-2003 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by compmage
04-15-2003 4:08 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
TheOne writes:
LMAO, lol.. man people really do have a sense of humor on this site! I love it!

I don't think that this was ment as a joke.


well... then I think I'm gonna cry...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by compmage, posted 04-15-2003 4:08 AM compmage has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 82 (37052)
04-15-2003 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by THEONE
04-15-2003 4:17 AM


Re: Jesus
well... then I think I'm gonna cry...

Why? Because (surprise, surprise) somebody believes something totally different than you with (shocking!) as much justification for their beliefs (a holy book, some prophecies, centuries of tradition) as you have for yours?

------------------
Epimenedes Signature: This is not a signature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 4:17 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 6:04 AM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 11 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 6:45 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 82 (37055)
04-15-2003 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
04-15-2003 4:24 AM


Re: Jesus
Lets see, that guy asked me who Jesus was, and I wrote what I think and believe. It's okay. TheOne's a Jew, maybe he can share with us what he thinks about Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 04-15-2003 4:24 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 7:26 AM Andya Primanda has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 11 of 82 (37059)
04-15-2003 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
04-15-2003 4:24 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
well... then I think I'm gonna cry...

Why? Because (surprise, surprise) somebody believes something totally different than you with (shocking!) as much justification for their beliefs (a holy book, some prophecies, centuries of tradition) as you have for yours?


Well, for me as a Jew to know that Allah would send a messanger to "children of Israel" or I guess Jews berofe he would open himself up to Mohamed (several hundred years later) and forming Islam as a religion, flatters me and melts my heart, therefore I cry of Joy. Unless of course, the message is not something to be joyfull of. Just what is the message?

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 04-15-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 12 of 82 (37060)
04-15-2003 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Andya Primanda
04-15-2003 6:04 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
TheOne's a Jew

You say it as if its a bad thing.
As far as my views on Jesus, I already stated them above. My belive is that he was used as a tool by Paul and early Christians to attract more pagan followers. Some of Pagans were attracted to mystical G-d, JHVH, of the Jews. But how do you relate to him? You can't see him, but yet he's everywere. Also conveting meant keeping kosher and keeping 613 comandments. Which did not appeal to alot of Pagans. Paul used Jesus as something Pagans already were used to, and Idol. Also, Paul was the one to disregard the kosher rules and puting inplace only 10 out of 613 comandments (makes life easier doesn't it?).

Another thing Paul did, was to cancel the rule of Pagans converting to Judaism first, before becoming Christians. (early Christianity was just a different sect of Judaism) This final step lead to the final and irrevertable divider between Christianity and Judaism.

But that's just my belief (and some historians who wright books and stuff).

ps... Andya, I didn't mean any disrespect at all. To me idea of a G-d sending messangers to other nations hundreds of years erlier then to his own people is kindof bizarre. That's why I automatically thought you are one of many atheists here and just joking around.

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 04-15-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 6:04 AM Andya Primanda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 10:53 AM THEONE has not yet responded
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Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 82 (37063)
04-15-2003 8:08 AM


Whatever, you're all full of crap

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 82 (37078)
04-15-2003 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by THEONE
04-15-2003 7:26 AM


Re: Jesus
quote:
You say it as if its a bad thing.

Then I apologize. SOrry, I guess I've been hanging out with those Muslim brothers of mine which have no respect at all for Jews, and I get carried away.

I know about Paul's history also, Muslims thought that he's the one who started distorting Jesus' teachings. And of course, Jesus was not worshipped as God until some theologians declared that he's God in Nicaea. Weren't there still Christians who does not adhere to Trinitarianism?

quote:
Andya, I didn't mean any disrespect at all. To me idea of a G-d sending messangers to other nations hundreds of years erlier then to his own people is kindof bizarre. That's why I automatically thought you are one of many atheists here and just joking around.

Okay then, I offer you an olive branch. Surely we can do better than some of our misguided brothers out there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by THEONE, posted 04-15-2003 7:26 AM THEONE has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by joz, posted 04-15-2003 11:14 AM Andya Primanda has responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 82 (37079)
04-15-2003 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Andya Primanda
04-15-2003 10:53 AM


Hey Andya...
Heres a quick question, you said that you see Jesus as a messanger to "the children of Israel (exclusively)" is that Israel as in Jacob (of Jacob and Esau fame) who "wrestled with God and men"?

I was under the impression that the Arabic tribes claimed descent from Abraham through Ishmael, does this imply that they also claim to be descendants of Jacob, or is Mohammed seen as opening faith to everyone in a way that Jesus (or "Isa" right?) did not?

Just curious so don't worry that I'm going to jump on you.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-15-2003 10:53 AM Andya Primanda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by SharpeSworde, posted 04-15-2003 2:47 PM joz has responded
 Message 24 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-16-2003 12:01 PM joz has responded

  
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