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Author Topic:   Determining a book's truth.
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 16 of 161 (365376)
11-22-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-22-2006 3:42 AM


Answers
quote:
ou and I simply must talk! We need to understand that belief and empirical knowledge are two seperate realities.
perhaps, however...whatever is intrinsically valid in human behavior
that is perceived as a form of knowledge may...in fact equate to belief.
hmm very interesting argument. i could also argue that point for evolution.....
quote:
What do you mean by true? Is every word chosen by God?
i believe that most of the books in the bible were undisturbed quotes from God himself. but like revelations that was a dream John had, which was not DIRECT. i believe Genesis was from God, because, duh no one was there. i believe Exodus was from Moses, he wrote down everything that occured. see, there are some that are and some that are not.
quote:
Would you say you agreed with the three statements I made above? If so, can you tell me how you believe the books of the bible were chosen, from all the possibilities in earlier centuries?
yes, actually i can. in the creation of the bible, it took so much time and dedication to bring it together, lots of books denied God's authority so were tossed out, why? well hmm i think there were also people who HATED God and his love so they wrote about their hatred. anyway any books that denied God's power, love, and Jesus' sacrificed were tossed out of the bible. it wasnt a simpl "o ok bye bye" deal, it took tons of hard work and dedication to get it rihgt. of course then that makes you think "then its what man has put together not God" this isnt true! God inspired all those books, and man FOUND all the "correct" ones and put them together, with the help of prayer. its simple, all aspects of the bible agree with eachother! there is none that contradict, so i would assume the puzzles fit perfectly fine.
quote:
How so? The bible is a collection of many books, and each one is judged separately. It is possible to believe the Gospel of Mark but to disbelieve the Revelation of John, for example. They are different books, with different authors, about different subjects, written in different centuries*. It would be no different from me putting a non-fiction book and a fiction book on the same bookshelf.
it is because the entire bible was put together so perfectly that if it didnt have ONE single book in it, it would throw off the balance. lets say you wanted to know something about God, one book can tell you, then explain about something else, and you wanted to know that one, but theres no book about that subject becuase the book of revelation was tossed out. NO we need all those books becuase every single one is important to the whole.
quote:
You don't explain your reasoning.
if some of it is fake, then ALL of it is fake!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-22-2006 3:42 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 11-22-2006 1:11 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 18 by iceage, posted 11-22-2006 1:17 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-22-2006 3:37 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 23 by Equinox, posted 11-22-2006 4:08 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 24 by ReverendDG, posted 11-23-2006 3:32 AM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 30 by Damouse, posted 06-05-2007 8:26 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 161 (365382)
11-22-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
Juraikken writes:
if some of it is fake, then ALL of it is fake!
That makes no sense at all.
If a Connecticut Yankee never travelled to King Arthur's Court, does that mean the city of London doesn't exist? If there never was a Tom Joad, does that mean there is no Route 66? No California? No migrant workers? If Hitler never wrote a diary, does that mean World War Two didn't happen?
It's a lazy mind that insists on all or nothing. It takes some effort to figure out what parts of any book are "true" and which are not.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Juraikken, posted 11-22-2006 12:46 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 18 of 161 (365385)
11-22-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
i believe Genesis was from God, because, duh no one was there.
Sophisticated reasoning there. This means all creation stories must be from God (and true) since no one was there to record it. The bible stories are borrowed myths from Gilgamesh. Was Gilgamesh "from God".

This message is a reply to:
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Joman
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 161 (365420)
11-22-2006 2:30 PM


I believe that the AV Bible is the written word of God to the English speaking people of the earth.
I know it is the word of God because it is accurate.
I know that any new book isn't part of the AV Bible because the AV Bible testifies that it is a completed book. As such no one is authorized to change it's words nor add to them.
I would know regardless because lies always contradict the truth. And, knowledge of the truth exposes lies. Thus, anything contrary to the AV Bible is false. Or, the AV Bible isn't the word of God.
Furthermore, as a Christian I have a unction in my inner man that guides me into all truth.
If I lack knowledge then as a Christian I must rely on the teachers who God approves to help me.
The Holy Spirit, the AV Bible, my own spirit and the testimony of others all work toward affirming my belief's.
Joman.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by rakaz, posted 11-22-2006 3:25 PM Joman has not replied
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rakaz
Junior Member (Idle past 6112 days)
Posts: 15
From: The Netherlands
Joined: 01-24-2006


Message 20 of 161 (365443)
11-22-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Joman
11-22-2006 2:30 PM


quote:
I know it is the word of God because it is accurate.
How you know it is accurrate? And please do not tell me it's accurate because it is the word of God. That is just circular reasoning. Give me some real reasons why you think it is accurate. Please tell us why the Gospel of John is more accurate that the Gospel of Thomas.
Also remember, that the man in the hypothetical situation does not know anything about Jesus and the life he lead. That man just read the two gospels for the first time and both are completely new to him. He does not know which story will become part of the Bible because it was not compiled yet. The man just has the two gospels and has to make a choice based on solely on those two gospels. Why would that man choose for the Gospel of John.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 161 (365447)
11-22-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
hmm very interesting argument. i could also argue that point for evolution.....
But not accurately.
yes, actually i can. in the creation of the bible, it took so much time and dedication to bring it together, lots of books denied God's authority so were tossed out, why? well hmm i think there were also people who HATED God and his love so they wrote about their hatred. anyway any books that denied God's power, love, and Jesus' sacrificed were tossed out of the bible.
Have you actually read any of the books not included?
Some of them are magnificent.
But it is evident that any book which "denied God's power", et cetera, wouldn't even be considered for inclusion.
simple, all aspects of the bible agree with eachother! there is none that contradict, so i would assume the puzzles fit perfectly fine.
Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes?
if some of it is fake, then ALL of it is fake!
That's not reasoning, that's asserting the thing to be proved.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Juraikken, posted 11-22-2006 12:46 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 22 of 161 (365451)
11-22-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Joman
11-22-2006 2:30 PM


I believe that the AV Bible is the written word of God to the English speaking people of the earth.
Do you mean to the exclusion of other Bibles?
Any particular edition?
I know it is the word of God because it is accurate.
So's the phone book.
I know that any new book isn't part of the AV Bible because the AV Bible testifies that it is a completed book. As such no one is authorized to change it's words nor add to them.
EVERY version of the Bible "testifies that it's a completed book", if by that you mean it contains Revelation 22:18-19.
I would know regardless because lies always contradict the truth. And, knowledge of the truth exposes lies. Thus, anything contrary to the AV Bible is false. Or, the AV Bible isn't the word of God.
Well, I'm glad you realize the alternative.
Furthermore, as a Christian I have a unction in my inner man that guides me into all truth.
Does it follow from this that anyone who disagrees with your views about the AV is not a Christian?
If I lack knowledge then as a Christian I must rely on the teachers who God approves to help me.
How do you identify the teachers whom God approves?
The Holy Spirit, the AV Bible, my own spirit and the testimony of others all work toward affirming my belief's.
Does it follow that anyone who doesn't agree with you about the AV does not have the Holy Spirit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Joman, posted 11-22-2006 2:30 PM Joman has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5141 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 23 of 161 (365455)
11-22-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
Juraikken wrote:
quote:
the entire bible was put together so perfectly that if it didnt have ONE single book in it, it would throw off the balance.
OK, so do you mean a Catholic Bible, a KJV Bible, an AV Bible (since that one has has come up), an Ethiopian Bible, or some other of the literally dozens of different Bibles available? And since the majority of Christians follow the 73 books of the Catholic Bible, do you think they are going to hell if you use a 66 book bible? Or vice versa?
Oh,and Joman - did you see my replies to your posts?
Have a fun turkey day everyone-

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 24 of 161 (365538)
11-23-2006 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
hmm very interesting argument. i could also argue that point for evolution.....
i don't see how, the bible is not empirically true, so how is it like evolution?
unless of course, you have empirical evidence snakes could talk, women were born from ribs and a man killed a thousand people with a jaw bone.
i believe that most of the books in the bible were undisturbed quotes from God himself. but like revelations that was a dream John had, which was not DIRECT. i believe Genesis was from God, because, duh no one was there. i believe Exodus was from Moses, he wrote down everything that occured. see, there are some that are and some that are not.
so what you are claiming now, form what i can see, is that god talked about himself in 3rd person, and didn't call himself the same thing throughout the book?
there is no outside evidence of anything in exodus, the places the author claims they happened in exist, but theres no evidence any of the events happened.
you can believe what you want i guess, but to claim the words in the bible are by god, denies that the work has holes in it and looks written by people from three thousand years ago
yes, actually i can. in the creation of the bible, it took so much time and dedication to bring it together, lots of books denied God's authority so were tossed out, why? well hmm i think there were also people who HATED God and his love so they wrote about their hatred.
hated god? no i don't think you know much about the history behind the bible, more books were discarded because they didn't fit what the canon needed for consistency, many people wrote "heretical" works that were discarded solely because of what the controlling leaders thought should be in it
anyway any books that denied God's power, love, and Jesus' sacrificed were tossed out of the bible. it wasnt a simpl "o ok bye bye" deal, it took tons of hard work and dedication to get it rihgt. of course then that makes you think "then its what man has put together not God" this isnt true! God inspired all those books, and man FOUND all the "correct" ones and put them together, with the help of prayer. its simple, all aspects of the bible agree with eachother! there is none that contradict, so i would assume the puzzles fit perfectly fine.
ironicly many church leaders argued for the inspired nature of books that never made it into the canon, or books that only made it into one.
by the way many of the books don't fit together, enoch, a book that never was included, but for one church canon, influenced the whole NT, its were a good amount of the stuff on satan comes from, but its not considered inspired, but jesus took quotes and idea from it
from what i have read of the history, revelations took centuries to become "inspired" the churchs argued over whether it was right or not, how can anyone think the books are from god, if the leaders argue over its validity?
it is because the entire bible was put together so perfectly that if it didnt have ONE single book in it, it would throw off the balance. lets say you wanted to know something about God, one book can tell you, then explain about something else, and you wanted to know that one, but theres no book about that subject becuase the book of revelation was tossed out. NO we need all those books becuase every single one is important to the whole.
i have to disagree, i've read most of the bible, and there is no way its perfect, why include 3 different sets of commandments? why 2 religious laws? why do they repeat stories? what difference would it make if they left out revelations? its not even in most of the bibles up to the kjv and it didn't mean anything
if some of it is fake, then ALL of it is fake!
so in order for it to be right on the spiritual meanings, the silly myths about a guy killing a thousand people with a jawbone and a guy causing animals to give birth to striped animals by putting sticks in a trough, have to be true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Juraikken, posted 11-22-2006 12:46 PM Juraikken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2006 5:13 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 25 of 161 (365544)
11-23-2006 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ReverendDG
11-23-2006 3:32 AM


Re: Answers
what difference would it make if they left out revelations? its not even in most of the bibles up to the kjv
Not so. The Canon of the New Testament was fixed by the end of the fourth century, when St Jerome translated the Vulgate; the Apocalypse of John has been in the canon ever since.

This message is a reply to:
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tcroth01
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 161 (403158)
06-01-2007 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by attssyf
11-21-2006 6:31 PM


Reasons to Trust Bible as the Truth
When we make an examination of the bible it can be seen that it is inspired by God. For example, the hundreds of prophecies recorded over centuries and their fulfillment. The chronology of the recorded prophecy and its fulfillment can be verified and is also corroborated by secular history. Daniel recorded a prophecy of which he did not understand and yet in view of scripture recorded centuries later it makes sense! Are these evidences of inspiration? How would the bible writers separated by hundreds of years collude such information that is wonderfully harmonious over thousands of years? I hope this is a helping to roll the ball forward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by attssyf, posted 11-21-2006 6:31 PM attssyf has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-01-2007 9:45 AM tcroth01 has not replied
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2007 9:55 AM tcroth01 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 27 of 161 (403159)
06-01-2007 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by tcroth01
06-01-2007 3:19 AM


Re: Reasons to Trust Bible as the Truth
Biblical prophecy has been discussed here many times and we have yet to see one provably good example. If you have a specific example you want to discuss it can be taken to one of the earlier topics or we can start a new one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by tcroth01, posted 06-01-2007 3:19 AM tcroth01 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 161 (403186)
06-01-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by tcroth01
06-01-2007 3:19 AM


Re: Reasons to Trust Bible as the Truth
You are simply quoting the standard lies from the Christian Cult of Ignorance. It is sad and frankly, embarrassing when someone claiming to be a Christian comes in and repeats such obvious nonsense.
For example, the hundreds of prophecies recorded over centuries and their fulfillment.
If you know of a good example of such a prophecy, please start a thread on it so it can be examined.
How would the bible writers separated by hundreds of years collude such information that is wonderfully harmonious over thousands of years?
They copied each other. The New Testament writers quotemined those who came before. Further, the Bible is not wondrously harmonious but rather filled with contradictions and mutually exclusive parts.
I have to ask, have you ever even read the Bible or are you like most Biblical Christians, ignorant of what is actually in it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by tcroth01, posted 06-01-2007 3:19 AM tcroth01 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 161 (403189)
06-01-2007 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by tcroth01
06-01-2007 3:19 AM


Re: Reasons to Trust Bible as the Truth
When we make an examination of the bible it can be seen that it is inspired by God.
Which Bible? It's a little ridiculous to pretend like there's only one.
For example, the hundreds of prophecies recorded over centuries and their fulfillment.
There is no more fulfilled prophecy in the Bible than there is in any other holy book; even the ancient Greeks understood that "fulfilled prophecy" was a mug's game, because nearly any prophetic statement can be retrodacted (re-interpreted after the fact) to appear to match current events.
How would the bible writers separated by hundreds of years collude such information that is wonderfully harmonious over thousands of years?
They didn't; you're overlooking your own participation in the process. You're simply re-interpreting the "prophecies" in light of current events you already know about. Everybody who's ever tried to interpret the "prophecies" of the Bible to predict things that hadn't happened yet - like the Christians who predicted the end of the world in 1600 - have been spectacularly wrong.
There's no valid prophecy in the Bible. The way you re-interpret it, you could find accurate "prophecy" in nearly any source. Hence, the prophecies of Nostradamas, or "The Bible Code" (which, not so strangely, could only find "predictions" of things that had already happened.)

This message is a reply to:
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 30 of 161 (403910)
06-05-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Juraikken
11-22-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Answers
quote:
i believe that most of the books in the bible were undisturbed quotes from God himself. but like revelations that was a dream John had, which was not DIRECT. i believe Genesis was from God, because, duh no one was there. i believe Exodus was from Moses, he wrote down everything that occured. see, there are some that are and some that are not.
Aright, if genisis is from god and no one was there to see it, then how on earth did it end up in the bible if noone was there to witess the happening? Lets suppose that god DID tell his followers. Even from there its a loong road up till the era when people learned to write (ahem) or, ignoring that detail, its a few thousands of years worth of hearsay.
quote:
yes, actually i can. in the creation of the bible, it took so much time and dedication to bring it together, lots of books denied God's authority so were tossed out, why? well hmm i think there were also people who HATED God and his love so they wrote about their hatred. anyway any books that denied God's power, love, and Jesus' sacrificed were tossed out of the bible. it wasnt a simpl "o ok bye bye" deal, it took tons of hard work and dedication to get it rihgt. of course then that makes you think "then its what man has put together not God" this isnt true! God inspired all those books, and man FOUND all the "correct" ones and put them together, with the help of prayer. its simple, all aspects of the bible agree with eachother! there is none that contradict, so i would assume the puzzles fit perfectly fine.
who are you to decide that it was inspired? not even the writers were so bold to write that they had been inspired to write some of the bible's verses. many, many books were written about god and decided on over time, but PEOPLE wrote the bible, and your interperatation is just that and ignores the individual's pursuit of an agenda. On top of that, we need to review our history. The council of Nicea voted on the status of jesus as the son of god or the creation of god before anything was to be done about selecting books; they didnt start with the intentions of "weeding out the lies"
the bible was put together by people and by people alone. you saying that it was god inspired is simply an excuse with no power behind it. Had chance fallen a little differently, had matt or mark or luke or john died a premature death at the hand of some cutpurses, would they still have been included?
Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.

This statement is false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Juraikken, posted 11-22-2006 12:46 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
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