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Author Topic:   Determining a book's truth.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 61 of 161 (405707)
06-14-2007 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 7:08 AM


Re: Tyre
If it is said that a city will be built no more/never be rebuilt refers to reestablishing that former city.
no, read it again. it says that tyre will forever be a rock upon which fishermen cast their nets, and never anything more. not that the same city will not be rebuilt, but that the land itself will never be occupied by a city ever again.


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 Message 55 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 7:08 AM Psalm148 has not replied

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 62 of 161 (405717)
06-14-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
06-14-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Tyre
I think they had no reason to lie to me. I've both read from sources and been told that what I have told you as to what happened in Tyre is what happened. I'll look into it on my own time later. For now, as neither of us will be convinced otherwise, I suppose we must agree to disagree.
In other words: I must research this for myself because as I had no reason to doubt the person who told me first about Tyre, and yet I have no idea who you are or anything. I propose we disband talking about this until later. By the way, is the discussion you posted in an earlier post closed? If not, I suggest we continue this in there later.
In other things, what do you think on the Daniel Prophecies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 06-14-2007 12:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 06-14-2007 2:27 PM Psalm148 has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 161 (405718)
06-14-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 2:20 PM


Re: Tyre
I think they had no reason to lie to me.
My guess is that they are simply ignorant of the facts or the scripture.
As I said earlier, IMHO the Daniel Prophecies are simply post-hoc reasoning.
By the way, is the discussion you posted in an earlier post closed?
If you mean Message 1 then no, it is not closed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 2:20 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 64 of 161 (405720)
06-14-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 2:20 PM


Tyre today...
The city that would never be rebuilt:
Tyre (Sour) City, Lebanon
for photos of Tyre today.

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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5160 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 65 of 161 (405738)
06-14-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Psalm148
06-13-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Psalm148's declaration of all or nothing...
Ps 148 wrote:
Within reason. Like as of right now if an account is one number off, like David numbered at 10,000 here, and then 20,000 there, Probably not, but I would definitely have something to think about. However, if you can give me something more substantial that contradicts, than yes, I would consider the Bible to be perhaps not nonsense, but I would likely not believe it anymore. Did you have an example in mind?
That reminds of a previous discussion (here: http://EvC Forum: What is the biggest bible contradiction? -->EvC Forum: What is the biggest bible contradiction?). My post there may be useful:
quote:
________________________________________
What is the biggest bible contradiction or flaw in your opinion?
Just simply, what doesn't make sense in the bible sdf
________________________________________
Well, some of the ones that come to mind for me are these:
The geneologies between Chr and Mt from adam to David disagree, even though they claim to be describing the same thing. Apologists respond as usual by making words mean things other than what they mean, (such as “father of” not meaning “father of”), but even that doesn’t work, since they have different numbers of generations, and Mt even makes it a point to count them, and counts them wrong.
The Ten commandments in Ex 20 and 34 disagree. The most common apologetic response is that the 34 set isn’t really the ten commandments, even though Ex 34:28 is clear that they are exactly that.
The Birth year of Jesus in Mt and in Lk irreconcilably disagree. Mt and Lk mention herod, but then Luke mentions Quirinius, who ruled long after Herod had died. A longer explanation is at http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/Quirinius.html.
The place where GoJ changes the day of Jesus’ death to make a theological point (that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb) - but that’s already being discussed.
Peter denying Jesus 3 times before the cock crows in mark, and 3 times after the cock crows in John. Well, was it before or after? Fundamentalists say that both must be correct, and Peter must have denied Jesus 6 times! Silly - just like Jesus clearing the temple at the start of his ministry in John and at the end in the synoptics, fundamentalists take the same tack there, saying Jesus just must have trashed the temple twice. One would think they’d get tired of that and ban his admission or something. There are so many other things just like that that I better stop or I’ll be here all day.
Some of the more notable ones between the gospels are when it must be from the holy ghost. For instance, in the speech before pilate, no disciples or bystanders are there - just Jesus, Pilate, and probably some guards. Of course the disciples didn’t interview pilate or the guard later, so how did the gospel writers get the stories? Must be straight from the holy ghost’s mouth (or whatever he has). Then why are they different between the gospels?
One other is the transfiguration thing I mentioned above, or the many disagreements between Kngs and Chr when they tell the same stories. For instance, they’ll have the same person die a different way in a different city, list different sizes of armies, etc.
That’s probably a lot more than you want, but only a small sample of what's in the half million words of the Bible. Have a fun day-
It’s hard to figure out where to start with all the well known errors and contradictions in the Bible. This list above is just the tip of the iceberg (another good one is “how and where did Ahaziah die?” - compare 2Kng9 with 2Cr22).
In the same way you can get dozens more by simply reading Kng and Cr in parallel, and comparing the same stories that are told in each. The Bible is not like the 3rd testament (the book of Mormon) or the Qu’ran, which were both written by one person at one time. As a result they have comparatively fewer contradictions as compared to the Bible.
Here's an example of that "respect" thing:
Within reason. Like as of right now if an account is one number off, like David numbered at 10,000 here, and then 20,000 there, Probably not, but I would definitely have something to think about. However, if you can give me something more substantial ....
Well, that makes me wonder if it's really considered the perfect word of God. If so, then 10,000 vs 10,001 would be a big problem. Of course, if one already doesn't respect it as the word of God, then 10,000 vs 20,000 doesn't matter I guess.
I think they had no reason to lie to me. I've both read from sources and been told that what I have told you as to what happened in Tyre is what happened.
Well, sure, but that’s hardly relevant. Just like you, I’m sure they were honest, it’s just that they were just as misinformed as you are now. It’s the same as the fact that I’m sure you’re honest in re-telling the statement that “Tyre is a good Bible prophecy”. I don’t think you knowingly lied any more than they did - you are both just repeating a story you heard because you like what the story says. Human culture works like that.
Welcome to EvC, and have a fun day-
Equinox
P. S. I apologize for contributing to this thread, but felt the need to since I had such a related post just a few months ago in that other thread. I’m sure you feel buried, and it’s never good to make someone feel surrounded or such. That’s especially true with something like this that can be emotional or make one feel insecure (the realization that you can’t trust what you’ve trusted, or that significant parts of your worldview could be incorrect). There’s no rush or deadline on any of this, so take your time responding.

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Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 66 of 161 (405747)
06-14-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
06-14-2007 2:27 PM


Re: Tyre
I'll continue Tyre later than in that topic. For now, I ask you are you certain of that they are post-hoc?
When were the Dead Sea Scrolls found? If they were dated before the time of Alexander, or not to long after, then they cannot be post-hoc because they would have been written before him.
I am rather unfamiliar with dating, but I believe that most of the works cannot be post-hoc as you say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 06-14-2007 2:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 161 (405756)
06-14-2007 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 5:25 PM


Re: Tyre
When were the Dead Sea Scrolls found? If they were dated before the time of Alexander, or not to long after, then they cannot be post-hoc because they would have been written before him.
They are post-hoc because it is folk today that are running around trying to find meaning to assign.
The problem is that so many ministers and pastors these days seem to misunderstand the function of Prophets. They are not fortune tellers. The function was to carry a message from God to his peoples. And it was a message for right now, for the immediate audience. If they could not understand or use it, it was pointless.
It is not a matter of when the lines were written, it is when we assign meaning to them. That is the post-hoc aspect.
This is nothing new by the way. The authors of the Gospels did it when then went back and quotemined Isaiah to make it look like it was a prophecy of Jesus.
There actually are what seems to be actual prophecy in a few places in the Bible, but few Biblical Christians seem to find them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 5:25 PM Psalm148 has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5004 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 68 of 161 (405776)
06-14-2007 8:47 PM


Holy book?
There seems much to discuss on the bible unlike any other book in circulation. Why is this? Why is it so important to clarlify this book? What does it matter? Neil Walsh's god books are inspired by god, why aren't they in the same category? What is this need to cling to the writings of an ancient book? I see the bible vehemently defended and I wonder what the defenders are so afraid of?

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 69 of 161 (405780)
06-14-2007 9:14 PM


First off:
As for Daniel being post-hoc, what would be the point? Put yourself in the writer's situation, and ask yourself, why?
The Dead Sea Scrolls were found and date between 200 BC and 200 AD, some even going as far as 400 BC. Now when Daniel is contained in those writings, why would the writer have bothered?
If the issue is that since there is no writing dating back to that time to confirm that Daniel was in fact writing from Babylon and Persia, additionally to the question of why he would do that is that if you do that for this, why do you accept things like Socrates? None of his original works exist. And yet do you challenge them?
As for why other books aren't defended, it's because if people believe them, for some reason they feel no need to defend them. The fact that someone will defend something, shows that they care about what it says. it's like if someone insulted your family, you feel the need to stick up for them.

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 855 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 70 of 161 (405786)
06-14-2007 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 9:14 PM


Determining Socrates' Book's Truth
Psalm148 writes:
If the issue is that since there is no writing dating back to that time to confirm that Daniel was in fact writing from Babylon and Persia, additionally to the question of why he would do that is that if you do that for this, why do you accept things like Socrates? None of his original works exist. And yet do you challenge them?
I don't know what has happened to the educational system in this country. Everyone used to know that Socrates never wrote down a single word so far as anyone has ever said throughout the entirety of history. We know Socrates through Plato's works, you know Plato the philosopher, that Plato.
{yeah, I know Aristotle, Xenophon, and Aristophanes mentioned him as well, I'm talking about the main source, so save your fingertips}
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 71 of 161 (405788)
06-14-2007 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 7:08 AM


Tyre and Egypt
Psalm148 writes:
A city with the same name doesn't mean it is the same city.
A city of the same name rebuilt in the same location does mean the same city.
Furether the prophecy claims Nebuchadnezzar specifically which did not happen.
Ezekiel 26:14 writes:
"I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets; you shall never be rebuilt; for I the Lord have spoken, says the Lord God."
This refers to a physical geographic location not some essence of Tyre as no city maintains its essence thru the ages and inevitable conquest.
Interesting even the NT refers to Tyre in several places.
psalm 148 writes:
and just a city built near the ancient location would not mean it was the same.
What do you mean by "near"?
But moving right along there are other problems in Ezekiel such as...
Ezekiel 29:8-12 writes:
...thus says the Lord God. And the land of Egypt shall be desolation and a waste...no foot of man shall pass through it and no foot of beast shall past through it; it shall be uninhabited for forty years. And I will make the city of Egypt desolation in the midst of desolated countries; and her cities shall be desolated forty years... I will scatter Egyptian among the nations, and disperse them through the countries.
Any thoughts on this prophecy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 7:08 AM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 10:00 PM iceage has replied

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 72 of 161 (405793)
06-14-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by iceage
06-14-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Tyre and Egypt
Abandon Tyre because we disagree on what happened to it in the past. I've read that it was besieged and taken, and yet you(s) claim otherwise. Until a later time, I will not be discussing this because it isn't getting anywhere.
I'll touch on the last questions. Same name, same location means same city. different location means different city. There is one in NY you know. Does that mean it's existence disproves the prophecy? Of course not.
Near meaning it was in Lebanon or around the general vicinity. AS in it was in a different location then.
As for Egypt, (I'm no Egyptian expert) I assume its safe to say that this hasn't happened yet. It is however possible that this could refer to another city/country if such is the case. If it is in fact Egypt, than I assume it would be sometime in the future, and if other interpretation is correct, then it looks to be near future. What are thoughts on the interpretation of Daniels image. Even if we pretend that it was written 50 years ago, then the part about the feet still hasn't been fulfilled, and then there is the part about the stone...
Any thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iceage, posted 06-14-2007 9:34 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 06-14-2007 11:24 PM Psalm148 has not replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 73 of 161 (405813)
06-14-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 10:00 PM


Re: Tyre and Egypt
Abandon Tyre because we disagree on what happened to it in the past. I've read that it was besieged and taken, and yet you(s) claim otherwise.
that's actually irrelevent. the text says, as has been posted a number of times, that tyre will become a rock, and nothing will ever be built there again. the fact that there is something there now -- whether or not we play semantics about it being the same city or not -- defeats the prophecy that says there should not be anything there.
and it doesn't matter which part of the city, as modern tyre covers both the island stronghold AND the mainland, and a new stretch of land between the two.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 10:00 PM Psalm148 has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5971 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 74 of 161 (405814)
06-14-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Psalm148
06-13-2007 11:07 PM


Psalm148 writes:
What I disagree with is that you are referencing things of dates much later in time. Aka the council of Trent. I think the Church was corrupted at this time. Largely due to the fact that Constantine screwed around with a lot of doctrine and did a lot of incorporating with Hellenistic culture.
I put in the wrong council there, not Trent, but Laodicea and Hippo. Constantine wasn't until Nicea anyway, and he was a Roman convert afterall. All of the early Christians were converts, and I think you do a disservice to GOd by calling the Gentiles corrupters.
True followers of Christ and believers wouldn't have thought to throw out the old law because that is where they get their scripture. Note, the Apostle Paul often quotes the Old Testament. Evidently he believed it to be factual otherwise he would not have bothered to cite it.
Well, they did, precisely because they wanted to be true followers of Christ alone. No one knows if Paul believed something was factual, all he said was that it was useful. If you want to disregard all of church history as 'not real Christianity' you are in a bind, because without them you would have nothing.
Jews and tradition is not what is important, rather the written word. The Law that was given by God to Moses on Mt. Horeb (according to the text), and that is what Jesus uses when he teaches. He rebukes the pharisees for forsaking God's law for tradition. Not to say that what the Older generation did is invalid, but rather that they must keep God's word rather than tradition.
Well, Paul screwed around with Jews and their tradtions, as well as doctrine. So did Jesus, and I believe all of it is important. Do you know where we got the Bible? Tradition.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 75 of 161 (405822)
06-15-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Psalm148
06-14-2007 10:00 PM


Re: Tyre and Egypt
Psalms writes:
I've read that it was besieged and taken, and yet you(s) claim otherwise
Agreed the city was besieged and taken numerous times thru history as most (all) ancient cities. However, there is a city today in the same place as the ancient city.
Psalm writes:
AS in it was in a different location then.
Please explain different location and I will stop. Here is a good aerial map of Tyre showing the mainland and island part of the city...
Account Suspended
I can understand why you want to move on from this but you are hanging on to this "different location" and some testimony of a friend of a cousin.
Psalm 129 writes:
Neb started, Alexander completed, some other people rebuilt.
The prophecy states Nebuchadnezzar was to destroy the City not someone else over 2 centuries later. This a failure of the prophecy.
Concerning Egypt...
Psalm 148 writes:
I assume its safe to say that this hasn't happened yet
Not safe at all. The prophecy is specifically against the Pharaoh, king of Egypt. The Pharaoh's are long gone and people of Egypt have been mostly replaced with another people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Psalm148, posted 06-14-2007 10:00 PM Psalm148 has not replied

  
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