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Author | Topic: Jews Rejected God's Offer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dpardo Inactive Member |
I believe I understand what you are saying.
However, it may not be an error, per se. In reading and interpreting scripture we have to consider (among other things): 1. The culture of the time. I think this emphasizes the importance of praying for guidance from God, reading things in context, and taking all the scripture of the bible into consideration when trying to resolve issues like this.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Matthew 16:15-17 says:
It is plain and clear here that Jesus is confirming Peter's assertion that he [Jesus] is the son of God.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 175 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i am reading it in context. i mentioned similar verses and phrasing in the other gospels, especially matthew. the simple fact of the matter is that john misunderstood what was scripture to jews and what was not. the problem is also that we're dealing with events that were recorded at a later time. while some of these events probably happened, and jesus was probably a real person, the gospels are still imperfect reflections on the truth. john takes a more attributed perspective on jesus (attributing things people said about him to things he said himself) where matt. mark, and luke do not. john was also pretty obviously not jewish.
the culture of the time of the events held that the torah was god's holy law, and that rest of the tanakh was also holy but not from god directly. the nevi'im and ketuvim (which contains the psalms) were not included in what was considered scriptures by our standards, but still important and holy books. i am not sure how the christian churches at the time of the authorship of john regarded the hebrew bible, but it is evident by the text that john did not totally approve: "YOUR law" instead of "THE law"
commonly, in hebrew, for the last 3000 years or so, the five books of moses are refered to as "The Law" or "Torah." when a scholar mentions The Law he means the Torah, not the individual laws, and not the tanakh. christian often use "the law" to refer to the entire bible (including nt) and sometimes the ten commandments. i'm not sure of the greek/christian usage in john's day.
no, it just looks like a goof, because someone misunderstood the structure of sacred hebrew literature. john applied "Law" to the tanakh, when it really only applies to the torah. psalms are not, and will never be holy in the sense that the torah is. the are the words of people in tribute to their god. not directions and laws from god himself. jesus saying "psalms said this" isn't him saying "god said it's ok" it's him saying "other people did it too." it also shows that the author of john wasn't school in the torah. because otherwise, jesus might have said "Did not the Lord said unto Moses, 'I have made you a god over Pharaoh?'"
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 175 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
how is that different than "you say that i am?"
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dpardo Inactive Member |
I think that these phenomena lend more credence, not less. Different viewpoints about everything that happened is exactly what you would expect from different authors.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 175 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
yes, but at the same time you can't hold all of them to be right when they differ. matthew mark and luke actually all show signs of being COPIED from one document, the theoretical "q" gospel. yet they still differ. it's important to take the writings with a grain of salt, and analyze them. after much thought, i've decided not to accept the gospel of john for numerous reasons, and only one is the disagreement with other gospels.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
To my knowledge, the offer is not present in the Old Testament. BTW, what is the significance of your prerequisite that the offer be before the death of Jesus? It is during the time of Jesus, detailed in the New Testament, that the offer is presented. Jesus is clear that he has come to bring a message that was given him by God the Father (Luke 10:21-22):
His miracles, works, and resurrection give testimony that he was truthful and that God was with him.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Here is the offer (as I understand it) John 3:16-21:
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dpardo Inactive Member |
At the transfiguration, God confirms (a second time) that Jesus is his son and that Jesus' message is God's message (Luke 9:35):
Peter confirms the gospel message in Acts 10:43-44:
as does the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:20-25):
Regarding the rejection of the offer, some Jews believed, some did not. I believe you are familiar with the Gospels and the Book of Acts that describe these. Isaiah prophesied that the Gentiles would receive God and lamented that the Jews (not all of them though) had continually rejected him (Isaiah 65:1-2):
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Now, here is a warning:
Luke 11:23:
and Luke 11:52:
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ramoss Member Posts: 3203 Joined: |
Yes, those are claims by Christians. But, those books are not the Jewish scripture, so they don't relate to any offer that God has given the Jews.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 175 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
on page one of this thread, i made a demonstration. here's some verses from the koran:
quote: quote: quote: these clearly indicate that god works alone. all the power and might and credit belongs rightly to Allah. jesus cannot be a diety, nor does he play a role in salvation. do you believe this? the text is quite clear. if you don't accept this, why should a jew accept the new testament?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I am amazed that you don't understand. The Hebrews had a contract with God. At the time the contract was sealed it had no end date. God has stated several times that unless the world ends, the Hebrews would still be his chosen people. Even the "new covenant" mentioned in Jeremiah 31 does not give conditions that the Hebrews need to follow to received the "new covenant." No where does God tell the Hebrews that if they do not believe in the name (which God does not provide) of the messiah (anointed or son of God in Hebrew terms), that he would end the contract, reject them as a people, and choose another group. But if they (as a group or individually) eventually believe in the name of the specific man presented to them as the messiah and believe that he was the messiah (even though he is no longer visible), then they will be added to the "new" contract, welcomed back into the fold and follow all the new rules and rituals. quote:What was the message/offer? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Unfortunately John 3:16 is part of a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. No one else is present.
This makes it a rather limited offer. NOTE: In the Book of John this conversation takes place before John the Baptist is arrested. In the synoptics, Jesus didn't start his ministry or choose his disciples until after the arrest. (Mark 1:14) A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:God is answering Isaiah's pleas/questions.
Why do you think it speaks of the Gentiles receiving God? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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