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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1712 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 31 of 219 (162431)
11-22-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Thugpreacha
11-22-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Righteousness
You made the statement that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected, but you are unable to tell me what the specific option was and when specifically it was rejected by the Jews.

Acts 26:22
...I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen--that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

And you provided:

Acts 28:23-28
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

So when a Christian claims that the Jews rejected an offer from God, that's a mouthful. There should be something in the OT that shows that an offer was to be made either by God or the messiah.

Paul was not the messiah.
Paul did not claim to speak for God.
Paul was not a disciple of Jesus.
Paul did not know Jesus.

But his gospel is accepted over that of Jesus?

I have found nothing in the OT or the teachings of Jesus to backup Paul's claims that the Jews were given an ultimatum by God or the messiah or that if they rejected it, the offer would then be given to the Gentiles. What was the offer?

I've already shown you that some of Paul's quotes from the OT carry a different meaning than what was stated in the OT.

Why do you need scholars? Paul himself says he says no more than Moses and the prophets. So the support should be there.

No one has shown me that support yet.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2004 4:23 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by YesthisisTrue, posted 11-23-2004 5:11 AM purpledawn has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 219 (162475)
11-22-2004 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Thugpreacha
11-22-2004 10:13 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
The type of liberation that Jesus did is a spiritual liberation. The Jewish people were looking for a natural concrete liberation from the oppression on earth, rather than a spiritual liberation from the unclean spirits which bound humanity since the Fall.

no jew is looking for spiritual liberation. they're not concerned with heaven or hell. the thought process is different. by blood, they are bound to law. some care, some don't. the messiahs they look for are not to save them from themselves, they're to save them from whoever is currently oppressing them.

they're looking for a very real kind of salvation. in immanuel's case, it was against the assyrians.

A matter of belief. Jesus sits on a throne today and always.

allow me to rephrase. is jesus the king of the united kingdoms of israel and judah? does he rule them and command their military? does he dictate the religious observances?

Do you as a serious student of the Bible disagree with Wycliffe?

yes. i do. usually on regular basis. he's not offering commentary or anything i couldn't have gathered just from reading the text. we all know that kings don't ride donkeys. they ride horses, and usually really nice ones.

i've offered explanation of jewish poetic style. wycliffe doesn't understand it, and neither did matthew. they're both simply WRONG.

john, by the way, records ONE animal, agreeing with my understanding of poetry.

quote:
John 12:14,15

And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, "Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."



This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2004 10:13 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 219 (162478)
11-22-2004 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Amlodhi
11-22-2004 2:33 PM


One orthodox Jew talking to another orthodox Jew:
Jew #1 > "I don't understand it. I raise my son up in orthodox Judaism and then the first thing I know he's into this Christianity thing. Do you have any advice for me?"

Jew #2 > "Funny you should ask me. I had the same trouble with my son."

Jew #1 > "What did you do?"

Jew #2 > "I asked God for advice."

Jew #1 > "What did he say?"

Jew #2 > "He said, 'Funny you should ask me . . .

i'm a big fan of this joke...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Amlodhi, posted 11-22-2004 2:33 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 219 (162479)
11-22-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Thugpreacha
11-21-2004 10:47 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
phatboy, you never answered my quotes from the quran about how christianity is sin, and you're being led astray by the devil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-21-2004 10:47 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 219 (162491)
11-23-2004 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
11-22-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Sure, Jar. I trust you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 5:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 12:34 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 36 of 219 (162492)
11-23-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2004 12:28 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Okay, so if we had a pact you'd expect me to keep it.

Suppose a little later I also made another seperate pact with Nosy. Would you expect me to keep that pact as well?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 12:28 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 2:46 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 219 (162511)
11-23-2004 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
11-23-2004 12:34 AM


Re: Can you walk awhile with an old man?
Yes, because pacts are what they are. Made to be kept.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 12:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 9:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
YesthisisTrue 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 38 of 219 (162527)
11-23-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
11-22-2004 7:21 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
actually, the bible never states that the messiah will be of david's bloodline, if you want to be technical about it.

I don't know if this is true or not, but if the OT doesn't require Messiah to be of David's bloodline, what's your point?

it is not blasphemy to name a child with a statement about god.

But,as I said, none of the thought-to-bes were named Immanuel.......so it's clearly not a requirement.

look, even if the word "is" is not present, it still does not denote that the bearer is divine

I don't know about Hebrew, but it certainly does in English.

and that we will prevail over the assyrians.

Why do you keep bringing up the Assyrians? Clearly, in this day and age, even the Jews would admit that the prophecy doesn't LITERALLY speak of Jews being delivered from the Assyrians.......as they're currently free from the Assyrians, and yet they believe that Messiah has not yet come.

human beings can be granted immortality. read genesis 3.

Not in THIS world, as was evidenced by the fact that the fella you speak of (I forget his name) was taken up to heaven......he wasn't granted fleshly immortality, he was just spared death.

revelation is 100% symbolic.

Exactly........so were the old testament prophecies, largely, whether the Jews realized it or not.

uh, no, that award goes to the christians.

Oh, ok, when CHRISTIANS say something's literal, they're wrong, and when Jews do it, they're right.......

every christian thinks there was a war in heaven before creation, and lucifer/satan fell, where he tempted adam in the garden of eden.

Once again, you guys should really study up before making incorrect statements like this.

the talmud is not canon.

All depends on how you define canon........if you believe that it's as holy as any other holy scripture (as the Jews do), then you consider it canon.

i'm a christian.

Then you are my brother...

i'm arguing why jewish people don't agree.

But, as I said earlier, Jews can't even believe anymore that Messiah's gonna literally save them from the Assyrians and Babylonians, as Babylon doesn't even exist anymore......

and no, there is little to no indication of jesus in the old testament. i will happy to discuss ever verse that you think mentions him in another thread.

Let's do that.

the point is that matthew was too dim to understand that zechariah was refering to only one animal

Obviously, Matthew was working off of a flawed memory with the verses he quoted.......does that really make a difference?

This message has been edited by YesthisisTrue, 11-23-2004 04:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by arachnophilia, posted 11-22-2004 7:21 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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YesthisisTrue 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 39 of 219 (162531)
11-23-2004 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 7:21 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
BTW, I see you guys are mentioning how NT people misquote the OT a lot......and you're right, technically. But nothing less should be expected; neither ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek even had quotation marks.......
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 11-22-2004 7:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
YesthisisTrue 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 40 of 219 (162532)
11-23-2004 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 7:21 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
BTW, I see you guys are mentioning how NT people misquote the OT a lot......and you're right, technically. But nothing less should be expected; neither ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek even had quotation marks.......
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 11-22-2004 7:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
YesthisisTrue 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 41 of 219 (162533)
11-23-2004 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 7:21 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
BTW, I see you guys are mentioning how NT people misquote the OT a lot......and you're right, technically. But nothing less should be expected; neither ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek even had quotation marks.......
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 11-22-2004 7:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
YesthisisTrue 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 42 of 219 (162537)
11-23-2004 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
11-22-2004 7:26 PM


Re: Righteousness
Paul did not claim to speak for God.

Incorrect, sir.......which are why the books he wrote are part of teh word of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 11-22-2004 7:26 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 5:57 AM YesthisisTrue has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1712 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 219 (162553)
11-23-2004 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by YesthisisTrue
11-23-2004 5:11 AM


Re: Righteousness
Don't just say it, show where Paul claimed to speak for God.

Show where Paul says that all he is saying is from God.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by YesthisisTrue, posted 11-23-2004 5:11 AM YesthisisTrue has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 11:00 AM purpledawn has responded

  
HowManyColors 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 44 of 219 (162579)
11-23-2004 8:04 AM


Jesus didn't even claim that ALL he said was from God.......and neither has any figure in Biblical history. But it's clearly understood that Paul gives instruction from God. There are many Biblical accounts of God speaking audibly to Paul, as to a prophet. Many accounts of Paul performing miracles, again, like a prophet. And many accounts of Paul seeing visions, once again, like a prophet. And there are many instances in Paul's epistles in which he states "Not the Lord says this, but I" in which he's clearly implying that everything in that epistle is to be taken as revelation from God unless he specifically states otherwise.
Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 8:19 AM HowManyColors has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1712 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 219 (162586)
11-23-2004 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by HowManyColors
11-23-2004 8:04 AM


quote:
There are many Biblical accounts of God speaking audibly to Paul, as to a prophet.
Don't just say it, show me, oh YeOfManyNames.

List the verses.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by HowManyColors, posted 11-23-2004 8:04 AM HowManyColors has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by FlamingHomosexual, posted 11-23-2004 8:43 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
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