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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 76 of 219 (162825)
11-24-2004 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
11-24-2004 3:12 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Well, it's likely that the author of the Gospel of Luke was a native of Antioch and most likely never meet Jesus or even anyone who had known Jesus.

and as i pointed out, luke even says as much.


This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3119
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 77 of 219 (162868)
11-24-2004 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by dpardo
11-23-2004 8:52 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Doesn't matter. His name was not Immanual. Immanual is just a name. My grandfathers name was Immanual too, so what?

And, you are wrong. My references were what the JEWISH religion concsider messanic references.

As far as the reference to Immanual in Isaiah, that was not refering to someone who was to be born 600 years later. That particular passage was talking about Isaiah's own son. It wouldn't do King Ahaz much good for
for a sign to be fullfilled 600 years in the future. The sign was that before this baby was old enough to know right and wrong, the King
of Assyria would no longer be a threat to Ahaz. In other words, it was
the time period for a woman who WAS pregnant to have a child that was old enough to know what right and wrong was. Isaiah 8.4 shows how Isaiah made sure it would happen (He went to the prophetess and INSURED she conceived.. )It had nothing to do with some son of god born 700 years later.


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3119
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 78 of 219 (162869)
11-24-2004 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2004 2:41 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
You do realise that the Gospel of John was a psuedograhical work that was written between 80 and 125 C.E???

That makes it entirely hersay.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2004 2:41 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12785
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 219 (162894)
11-24-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
11-24-2004 8:36 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Ramoss, your "fact" is not proven. There is a debate about such matters. You atheists make it sound like your sources of knowledge are all that there is! You can't dismiss the counter arguments and sources from many well respected and learned Christian apologists. What books are you reading?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 11-24-2004 8:36 AM ramoss has responded

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1711 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 80 of 219 (162967)
11-24-2004 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by dpardo
11-23-2004 8:13 PM


Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Jeremiah 31:31 I know it well.

What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener?

The book of Jeremiah covers the disciplinarian acts of God concerning Israel and Judah. Around chapter 29 God has Jeremiah talk about bringing them back from captivity which continues through chapter 30 and 31.

Jeremiah 30:3
The days are coming, delcares the Lord, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the Lord.

Jeremiah 30:8
"In that day,' delcares the Lord Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them....

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the Lord, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."

Jeremiah 31:23
This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words:...

Jeremiah 31:27
"The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals.

Jeremiah 31:29-30
"In those days people will no longer say, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.' Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; ...

Jeremiah 31:31
The time is coming, "declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah....

Jeremiah 31:38
"The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when this city will be rebuilt for me....

Given that the theme of the Book of Jeremiah dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem etc., sending the Jews into exile, and their future return; the passages you shared are realistically speaking of that timeframe when the Jews returned to their promised land. If the prophecy was for 600 years in the future, it served no purpose for the people in exile.

Then they have this assurance from God which follows the verses you shared:

Jeremiah 31:36-37
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."

The Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Needless to say, there is still a lot of teaching going on!

What does this covenant state that the Jews have to do as their part of the covenant?

What does it say they have to do for God to forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more?

I see no conditions.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3119
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 81 of 219 (162973)
11-24-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2004 10:04 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Why, I am reading conservative Christian scholars on that. You know, people like Raymond Edward Brown, and the commentary in the ANchor Bible.

I would hardly classify them as atheists.

Why don't you read Raymond Edward Browns 'Introduction to the New Testament', or 'An Introduction to the Gospel of John', by Dr Brown
and Francis Molony?

These are not athiests. They are very mainstream conservative biblical scholars. They just so happen to go with the evidence, and not with wishful thinking like your sources.


This message is a reply to:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 219 (162978)
11-24-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by purpledawn
11-24-2004 2:36 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Purpledawn writes:

What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener?

Genesis 15:13 says:

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Why did God tell Abraham that his seed would eventually serve Egypt and be afflicted four hundred years?

Why does God tell anyone anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 2:36 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 11-24-2004 4:22 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 11-24-2004 7:35 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 93 by ramoss, posted 11-25-2004 11:37 AM dpardo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 83 of 219 (162996)
11-24-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by dpardo
11-24-2004 2:57 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Why did God tell Abraham that his seed would eventually serve Egypt and be afflicted four hundred years?

one more time around this simple idea: genesis was not written in the time of abraham. nor isaac. nor jacob.

in fact, i seriously doubt it was written during moses's lfietime as well. the best date i can find is about 600 -- in BABYLONIAN captivity. does the prophesy make more sense now? it's about egypt, but it's supposed to say to the reader "god got us out of egypt, he can get us out babylon too" or at the very least give them something to identify with.


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 Message 82 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 2:57 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12785
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 219 (163000)
11-24-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
11-24-2004 8:36 AM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Websters online:
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for psuedographical:
1. shadowgraphies
2. pseudoscorpions
3. pseudoscorpion
4. shadowgraphs
5. pseudoscientific
6. seductresses
7. stigmatically
8. seductress
9. stockholder
10. stochastically


So what was that word again?
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4607 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 85 of 219 (163009)
11-24-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2004 4:36 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
Maybe pseudepigraphical ?

  1. Spurious writings, especially writings falsely attributed to biblical characters or times.
  2. A body of texts written between 200 B.C. and A.D. 200 and spuriously ascribed to various prophets and kings of Hebrew Scriptures.

(From dictionary.com)


Confused ? You will be...
This message is a reply to:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 219 (163016)
11-24-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
11-24-2004 4:22 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Arachnophilia writes:

in fact, i seriously doubt it was written during moses's lfietime as well. the best date i can find is about 600 -- in BABYLONIAN captivity.

May I see your evidence for this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 11-24-2004 4:22 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1711 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 87 of 219 (163028)
11-24-2004 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by dpardo
11-24-2004 2:57 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching.

In the example you gave, God didn't tell Abraham to pass on the information to anyone else. The purpose is between God and Abraham.

Jeremiah on the other hand was told to deliver information to the House of Israel and Judah.

We can see the purpose of Jeremiah before 31:31.

God gave warnings of destruction. Pretty much change or be destroyed.
Then the warning of imminent destruction. All of which are within the lifetime of the audience.

Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience.

It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 2:57 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 8:11 PM purpledawn has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 219 (163036)
11-24-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by purpledawn
11-24-2004 7:35 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Purpledawn writes:

Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience.

It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.

What then do you say about the Messianic prophesies by the prophets?

From a Christian perspective, they were not fulfilled till Christ.

From a Jewish perspective, they have not been fulfilled even to this day.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 89 of 219 (163111)
11-25-2004 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by dpardo
11-24-2004 6:16 PM


babylonian genesis
May I see your evidence for this?

yes, you have a copy. it's called the book of genesis.

i won't even bother quoting. we all know where abraham was from: ur of the chaldeans. when were the chaldeans in ur? about 900-600 bc.

want some more evidence? look at the heavy babylonian influences: one creation account, the story of noah and the tower of babel are prime examples. noah's often debated, as is creation, so lets look at babel.

there really is a tower of babel. if i recall correctly, it's where we get the name "babylon" from. bab-el means ladder of the gods (or "stairway to heaven" if you will). it was completed at some point (a few millenia before christ), but fell into disrepair and crumbled, leaving only the first few levels of the ziggurat. around 600 bc, king nebuchadnezzar (remember him?) set about to rebuild and it was never finished. so we have an ancient babylonian temple, that "reached to the heavens" and a failed attempt to rebuild it by a very famous king.

...and a story in the bible that makes fun of it. you see, the tower of babel story is a JOKE. balal means "confusion" and SOUNDS like babel. and so the hebrews reading this story, and looking at nebuchadnezzar's project are laughing. "god must have confused him or made him stupid," they would say.

it's entirely too much of a coincidence for there to be a project to rebuild the babel ziggurat while the hebrews are there for it to NOT indicate that it influenced the writing.

now, i can't begin to point out all of the anti-babylon subtext in genesis. but it's sure there in abundance. this one was just a really good example. re-read genesis and watch for slander of babylon. if moses wrote the book, you'd think it'd be anti-egyptian, not anti-babylonian. i don't think the hebrews were even concerned with babylon until they were forced into subjugation.

so i think it makes a lot more sense to say that good portion of genesis was written IN babylon, or compiled and editted in babylon. i suspect a large motivation in doing this was to preserve certain oral legends, myths, and stories, so that the hebrew tradition would stay alive and isolated in a foriegn land. although i'm also pretty sure that certain parts of it date much, much earlier.

the point is that moses couldn't have written about the chaldeans, probably didn't write about the tower of babel, and certainly didn't care about the babylonians in the slightest. and so those bits at least must date much later than his lifetime.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-25-2004 01:27 AM


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 90 of 219 (163114)
11-25-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2004 4:36 PM


bad spellers of the world untie.
"pseudepigraphical" is even harder to spell than "apocrypha" and "septuagint" combined but not as hard as "floccinaucinihilipilification"

just thank god we don't have to use that last one in bible study... well, sometimes, i guess. for instance i tend to floccinaucinihilipilificate the book of john and the letters of paul...


This message is a reply to:
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