EvC Forum: Would Mary Have Been In Bethlehem?

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Topic: Would Mary Have Been In Bethlehem?

PaulK

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Message 151 of 156 (512188)
06-15-2009 7:17 AM

Reply to: Message 150 by ochaye
06-15-2009 4:55 AM

No, there's very little discussion of what Luke meant. There are many more posts like yours that assume that Luke meant some earlier census - but don't give any reason for it. I've asked before in this thread for reasons - and nobody seems to have any.

Luke refers to a census of Judaea held under Quirinius. We have a census of Judaea held in 6AD under Quirinius. Why should we assume that Luke meant some earlier census ?

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	Message 150 by ochaye, posted 06-15-2009 4:55 AM		ochaye has not replied

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	Message 152 by kbertsche, posted 06-16-2009 7:45 PM		PaulK has replied

kbertsche

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From: San Jose, CA, USA

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Message 152 of 156 (512353)
06-16-2009 7:45 PM

Reply to: Message 151 by PaulK
06-15-2009 7:17 AM

quote:
Luke refers to a census of Judaea held under Quirinius. We have a census of Judaea held in 6AD under Quirinius. Why should we assume that Luke meant some earlier census ?

Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius? Luke pointedly refers to the "first" census under Quirinius, implying that Quirinius held at least one later census. Why do you assume that the 6 AD census was the first one under Quirinius, and not the second or a later one?

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	Message 151 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2009 7:17 AM		PaulK has replied

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	Message 153 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 1:22 AM		kbertsche has replied

PaulK

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Posts: 17919

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Message 153 of 156 (512357)
06-17-2009 1:22 AM

Reply to: Message 152 by kbertsche
06-16-2009 7:45 PM

quote:
Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius?

No. We don't have any independent records of ANY Roman census of Judaea prior to 6 AD, or any record of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria (or any other position that Luke might have meant) prior to 6 AD.

quote:
Luke pointedly refers to the "first" census under Quirinius, implying that Quirinius held at least one later census.

I think that you are misreading it. I believe that Luke meant that it was the first Roman census of Judaea - which was held under Quirinius. Because Judaea was a nominally independent client state up until 6 AD when it was absorbed into the Roman Empire there would have been no earlier census. (And if there had been, Jospehus - who was very interested in the relationship between the Jews and the Romans - should have recorded it)

quote:
Why do you assume that the 6 AD census was the first one under Quirinius, and not the second or a later one?

I don't simply assume it. I conclude it, given that there are good reasons to reject the idea of any earlier Roman census (under any governor) - and no reason to place Quirinius as governor of Syria prior to 6 AD.

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	Message 152 by kbertsche, posted 06-16-2009 7:45 PM		kbertsche has replied

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	Message 154 by kbertsche, posted 06-17-2009 10:02 AM		PaulK has replied

kbertsche

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From: San Jose, CA, USA

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Message 154 of 156 (512393)
06-17-2009 10:02 AM

Reply to: Message 153 by PaulK
06-17-2009 1:22 AM

quote:
quote:
Do we have extra-biblical records of more than one census under Quirinius?
No. We don't have any independent records of ANY Roman census of Judaea prior to 6 AD, or any record of Quirinius holding the governorship of Syria (or any other position that Luke might have meant) prior to 6 AD.

That's not what I asked. To be more specific, do we have any extrabiblical records of another census under Quirinius AFTER the 6 AD census? If so, your case would have more weight.

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	Message 153 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 1:22 AM		PaulK has replied

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	Message 155 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2009 10:12 AM		kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

PaulK

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Posts: 17919

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Message 155 of 156 (512394)
06-17-2009 10:12 AM

Reply to: Message 154 by kbertsche
06-17-2009 10:02 AM

quote:
That's not what I asked. To be more specific, do we have any extrabiblical records of another census under Quirinius AFTER the 6 AD census? If so, your case would have more weight

Your argument is based on the assumption that Luke implies that there were two censuses under Quirinius. I have already answered that point in my previous post.