Prophesy or self delusion?

It has occured to me that a lot of people have faith in the idea of prophesy as a means of determining how the future of things according to the bible will unfold.
This brings me to a question about prophesy.Who among any of those who believe in prophesy of the bible can give me a DEFINITE prediction of an event that has not yet occured but is prophesied that we can establish today so that it might be pondered and critiqued before not after the fact?
Please do not put together something that can be reinterpreted after an event goes by which allows for fitting of the prophesy to the occurence as this is not a viable means of determining the validity of the prophesy.Also it would help to be something occuring within the next,say,couple of years or so that people like myself might live long enough to be coherent and not have drifted into senility.
I hope you understand the significance of what I am asking.The event you offer as prophesy requires that it not be vague or ambiguous.It would be similar in nature to me calling up a {LOL}psychic hotline and asking them to give me the name of the doctor who delivered me into the world and my time of birth.After all a psychic by definition can read your mind correct? Either the information is bang on or it is worthless.I think this will be interesting.

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"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

Note to adminsAre we still thinking over the prospect of release or critique on this topic or are you trying to make me sweat? LOL!

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Biblical prophecy is not short term. The Bible begins with the beginning and ends with the end. Between the front and the back is the entire history of the world from beginning to the end of the age of the world as we know it and the introduction of new heavens and a new earth. Asking for a Biblical prophecy fulfillment for a 2 year fulfillment would be something like going moose hunting in South Texas with a Daisy BB gun. LOL.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

What good is a vague indeterminate prediction?? I mean, sooner or later, something will happen that can be retrofited into it.

Well, I think there is a point to be made.When doing physics problem in class, us students have a concept we call "wishful thinking." In order to solve certain equations, we have to make them in such ways that they are solvable or are made into a form which we can use. Often, the only thing we can really do with the equations presented is wishfully think that they are what we want them to be. Eventually, with lots of shooting in the dark, hopefully we get to the answer.What I am trying to get at is that most, if not all, prophesies are rather vague. You can wishfully make them out to be anything you want.For example, in 1000 a.c.e., I could have said something like "the world will change almost over night and that it will hardly be recognizable anymore...." Well, we can apply the WW2, WW1, Napoleonic Wars, colonization of the new world, etc. to this prophecy. Every generation that is affected by any of those major historical events would have looked to the prophecy that I made and said, "wow, he was right on."So, how can you tell a real prophecy from wishful thinking if they are all so vague?

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For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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Why? Bush is a right wing nutcase.

buzsaw Really.Could you,say,point out to me chapter and verse concerning the cargo aboard the French ship Mont-Blanc on December 6 1917?Perhaps there is mention of the event in October of 1347 that changed the face of Europe?Or maybe the greatest test of change for humanity ever in Almagordo New Mexico at 5:29:45 a.m. Mountain War Time on July 16, 1945?Anything along the lines of something like this would be a prophecy of worth and consideration. Please explain why such specifity is not present ever in a prophecy.

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"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

Actually, I think some of the stuff in Nostradamus's quatrains are a lot more accurate than biblical prophecies. Heck, at least he tried to be specific, like the name of Hitler (Hister, if I recall correctly) and the year the world was supposed to end (I think was supposed to be 1999). You can't find anything that specific in the bible.

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For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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Why? Bush is a right wing nutcase.

well, there's the messianic prophesies, but i dunno if they're written anywhere exactly in the terms the modern hebrews think of it. parts of it certainly existed at the time of christ, and were reinterpretted to fit him.there's a promise in samuel where god tells david his children shall rule forever, and always be in god's favor, no matter how much they mess up. this obviously didn't work out that way, because babylon sort of conquered and burned jerusalem to the ground.this later gets re-written as they'll stay in god's favor, and always rule, if the people don't mess up. so now the israelis have been waiting for a messiah for 2500 years.according to prophesy, he will be a man of the line of david, unite israel, win back the promised land in battle, and rebuild the temple. but i'm not exactly sure that's written anywhere.

Bump to reiterate the delusional nature of biblical prophecies. I would have thought this topic would have exploded out the gate,but perhaps this is too much of a challenge to expect a response immediately.This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-04-2004 08:04 PM

Delusional nature? What more do you require Sidelined? What would you have us say, it seems that by your talk, nothing will convince you anyway. I will let your unbelief remain if you want it that badly. I guess I'm too delusional to provide you a sign.Isn't it a lil strange request though? If specificity of prophecy was that important that it could convince unbelievers, why would Christ preach belief? Are you suggesting he would preach;" he that gathers enough evidence that I exist, shall never die ".So, no sign will be given. And no sign will convince you.

In more than one place what would constitute an "interesting" prophecy has been laid out. So far no one has stepped up to meeting those requirements.I think that Side and others would be at least interested in digging deeper if someone could come up with a "real" prophecy.Just because the vague hand waving arguments haven't convinced Sidelined doesn't mean that nothing would.

mike the wiz Testy testy mike.Nothing would convince me if it is vague and easily manipulated rather than being concise and defensible and I find it disheartening that you would have it otherwise yourself.I had a response from buzsaw that goes thus LOL indeed.I fired off to him this reply to which I have not recieved an answer. How is such a request not accessible if the prophecy has any validity?Of course I am assuming buz overgeneralized in the statement about the entire history of the world yet the point remains.The biblical implication is that these prophecies are a foundation on which to base the proposition of gods power and omnipotence.I am also curious as to why it is,when such penetrating questions are asked that some find it necessary to presume that I have closed my mind and cannot be convinced?I am open to your position but it is of course bounded by conditions placed upon your position that I outlined in my OP. Why are such conditions anethema to you? I mean,the verification of a prophesy that is stipulated in detail without being vague is in your favour is it not? Why would he make prophesies that are ambiguous if belief were the point? If faith were all it was then why the attempts to convince otherwise through prophesying? I am truly sorry to hear that and I apologize if I aroused anger in you for that was not my intention.This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-04-2004 10:17 PM

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The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Apparently, I'm a prophet.

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"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

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Delusional nature? What more do you require Sidelined? What would you have us say, it seems that by your talk, nothing will convince you anyway. I will let your unbelief remain if you want it that badly. I guess I'm too delusional to provide you a sign.

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He told you exactly what would convince him.Read the OP.If you think it is unreasonable for a prophecy from the Bible to be specific, unambiguous, and made before the even is to have occurred, perhaps you can explain why?

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Isn't it a lil strange request though? If specificity of prophecy was that important that it could convince unbelievers, why would Christ preach belief?

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I don't know. It's folks such as you who point to fulfilled prophecy as a reason you believe, right? Presumably, that means that there was a time you did not believe, then you felt that there were a lot of fulfilled prophecies, then you started to believe.Or, was it the case that you already believed when you heard about the prophecies, and they were not instrumental in the origins of your leap of faith, so now they are just post-hoc reasoned into your preexisting desire that they be genuine?