Understanding through Discussion

Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 74 (9014 total)
39 online now:
jar, PaulK, vimesey (3 members, 36 visitors)
Newest Member: Ashles
Upcoming Birthdays: Raphael
Post Volume: Total: 882,003 Year: 13,751/23,288 Month: 269/412 Week: 56/40 Day: 5/23 Hour: 0/0

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003

Message 45 of 381 (175308)
01-09-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
01-09-2005 6:09 PM

Re: Literal part timers

You and I understand how God can inspire those who know Him, yet how do we explain this to non believers or to otherwise polite intellectual humanists without they thinking of us as arrogant?

The question is not one of arrogance but of wherther you have an understanding of the full spectrum of ways in which you may decieve yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 01-09-2005 6:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 1:14 AM sidelined has responded

Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003

Message 52 of 381 (175385)
01-10-2005 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
01-10-2005 1:14 AM

Re: Literal part timers

My response is that for a literalist, Jesus is a living reality. He is as alive as you are.

I was not aware you were a literalist.Now this is a good example for showing the problem of expressing your view.Here you state that Jesus is as alive as I am. Now I return with the rebuttal that I am at present communicating with you over the internet.I am confident that,barring trickery on your part,or delusion on my own,given your phone number I could call you up and have a pleasant converstaion.

I interact with people everyday on a physical level and have no trouble convincing someone that I exist. I need not ask them to have faith that I am there with them skiing or having dinner at their home.There is no need for belief prior to them seeing me or experiencing my presence in their lives.

I can cut my arm and watch blood flow from the wound and have no lapse in faith that the pain is actual.The same cannot be said for Jesus as far as I can see.Is there some definition you need to clarify here?

Knowing the character of Jesus...through impartation of the Spirit and through corroboration with His words, how am I deceiving myself by accepting Him? Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

But if you had been raised in a country where no bible exists such would certainly not be the case.The deception occurs when you say that Jesus is as real as I am when,say,were we to be neighbours,I am quite sure you would not have to accept me to know that I exist.

Let me ask you? What is the character of Jesus? Without the bible could you have known of his existence? If so how? Indeed,without the bible,could you define the character of Jesus? Yes?By what means? No?
Then it is only real in the sense of a character in a book and not an objective reality.

Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

I cannot answer that for you.Perhaps it emotionally satisfying. Perhaps it fillls a void caused by the normal process of living.Perhaps it fills a social need.Fall into it, embrace it.It is your life to do with as you please.

I only say that it is not a reality because it is not universally applicable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 1:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 6:21 AM sidelined has responded

Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003

Message 55 of 381 (175452)
01-10-2005 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-10-2005 6:21 AM

Re: Literal part timers

Sidelined, if you were to trust this source, it may provide SOME evidence that even people without much access to the Bible CAN become converts.

This supports my arguement that it is necessary fo have exposure to the bible before the belief comes to bear.A real living entity as you describe would have no need of such.

Kannada: We are from another faith and very strong in our traditions and rituals. At one time, my three children and husband became very sick. We began to visit temples, but it was no use. We lost our children. We were unable to bear the death of our children and had decided to take our lives. The next morning as we were tuning our radio, your program was on the air. We listened with much interest as God spoke to us, and we began to listen regularly since then. We stopped worshiping idols, and accepted Jesus as our Savior and took water baptism. We thank you so much for your program, which led us to salvation and to the living God.

Desperate people in suicidals of the highest level are going to grasp at any relief from their pain. This does not make the experience real big guy.They were already prone to acceptace of such as evidenced by a prior belief system.

I am able to know many unknown things about Jesus Christ by listening to your program. I have never before heard any teachings from the Bible, so it is new to me. I have learned that Jesus is not the founder of the Christian religion, but He is the Savior of mankind.

Perhaps we should track them down and see what they have learned to see if there are gaps in their knowledge as is often shown to be the case on this forum.

Of course, you may be skeptical of the claims being accurate.

The claims I have no doubt of. That they descibe actualities I am not.I simply no longer accept things at face value.The diificulty lays not in convincing me of claims it is in convincing me that the claims are free from bias and self referential sublties of human error.The worst possible kind of support for a position is testimonial.Why should I believe the testimony of thousands if those thousands are most likely wrong? Millions of people barking up a wrong tree constitute an enormous voice but it is no more than noise.

Spiritual acceptance of Jesus Christ...through the ministeries of others..IS universally applicable IF people so choose to accept it.(Him)

Yes, but only if you accept that these people who introduce you are not decieved.I have not met a cogent arguement in the field of belief that does not first require giving up on critical thinking, which amounts to the same as no thinking at all.
It is by your own admission only possible if choice to accept is met.This is in direct contradiction to your claim of a living breathing Christ as real as you or I since,as I clearly stated,such a Christ would not be disputed.

You find yourself frustrated that you are not somehow connecting to me with what this is you are trying to get across but you are wrong.I fully understand the issue. I have been introiduced to all this by numerous people.I have heard the "gift" christianity dangles as its carrot.I rejected that long ago on grounds that such not only could not be the case in reality but even in the context of devils advocate the means by which the gift is given {Christ and the cross} has made me choose otherwise.

I have mentioned before that the way I viewed the condition presented by Christ's death was that god is testing the character of those who hear this.Those who accept are the ones god will reject since they would allow an innocent{Christ} to suffer for their misdeeds.

It is not very convincing to me on all levels Phatboy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 6:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 12:56 PM sidelined has responded

Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003

Message 59 of 381 (175613)
01-10-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-10-2005 12:56 PM

Re: Literal part timers

And what "knowledge" would you teach them. That death is final for living organisms so make the best of today? How does that help uplift a family who lost their children in a tsunami? Make more kids? Survival of the fittest? Quit moping and smell the roses, perhaps? Spirituality is comforting to some people and I have seen changes in attitudes. That is the bottem line even if it could be said that the comfort is incidental

Why do you suppose that I would teach evolution to people who have lost so devastatingly?I would do what I would need done for me. I would be there to help them through their despair.I would listen to them as they grieved.I would allow them to express the pain and be there for them when they needed help through despondency.

I would not offer them the hope that they will see their children again.I would not comfort them with empty promises and hollow words.I would help them to celebrate what marvelous memories their children left them and allow them to express the healing part of the grieving process.Acceptence and renewal of purpose. I would help them to focus on a means of turning the loss into a reason to go on.

So you are saying that IF God were real, He surely would do it a different way?

No. This really is simple. If god were real,god would not need a bible to inform people of such.

The way that it is done is through relationship. Of course you know this, and I am not saying that you could not relate to a hurting family from your heart. What comfort would you give them?

Absolutely!See? We have common ground after all.You comfort others simply through relationship.By being there, by losing sleep when the person hurt cannot bear the moment.By being human first and foremost and thereby showing them that grief is shared when you wish to share it.
Some of us though,like myself,deal with grief on our own.I find it easier to sort out things without the input of people who often feel uncomfortable dealing with death and the hard issues of life.

You think that the greatest gift that a person can receive is the revelation that they can think for themselves, achieve for themselves, and thrive by their own initiative. Tell that speech to the Wal-Mart worker who toils 40 hours a week to barely support a family. Even better, the Chinese worker who labors to make those cheap goods with a weekly wage of $10.00.

LOL! You are preaching to the choir.I work long hours for lousy pay and no benefits to play tag with the bill collectors.I cannot afford a car or the insurance even.I do not own a house. I work until the temperature hits -30 celsius and we quit only because the lifts we use tend to be dangerous in that temperature.In summer I tend a rubber membrane kettle with membrane at a temperature of 200 celsius and have done so in 35 celsius weather with no wind and 14 hour days.
Sucks to be here but my choices unfortunately led me to this point.I bitch and moan and have days where I would dearly love to be skiing powder in the rockies or scuba diving off Vancouver Island.
But I am a husband and a father and if I do not work what will happen to my family? So what if other have more than me, are more succesful,or happen to be ahead in material things.I only have to watch the laughter on my daughter's face and I am rewarded in ways I can never buy.Go figure I am a happy failure.
I have no hope.I am at this point in my life up against the wall.But here's the thing,I work best when the hammer is down and this is where I enjoy life most but I do not have any illusions that I can be certain of having things work out.
You cannot get out of the game,the best that you can do is play to the best of your ability.
And don't... forget... to dance!

I may tell them that there is more to life than money. My spirituality may give them hope. What hope will you tell them? Perhaps that they can come to America, get an education, and teach their children about insects and asteroids? The mysteries of the great wonder of a godless universe?

What makes you think that they do not realize there is more to life than money?
I would have them get an education most definitely.There is endless wonder in the world around us that is free for the observant,and for those who apply what they have learned a chance to unravel some of its mystery and majesty.
To investigate and immerse yourself in the world of nature and relationships until the end comes is high purpose and adventure.Why do you think it depressing and sorrowful that the world has no creator? There is no heaven or hell and no reason to fight for or against such silliness.Free to be capable of anything and choosing to help others.A fellow traveller in the journey of life sharing and growing.What more do you want?

And I would say that you rejected a manmade concept of religion.

No.The scenario is christ died for our sins. If we accept the gift of christ's sacrifice then we are forgiven our sins since he will bear the burden for us. This is the gift as I rejected it and as I explained in my previous Post. I did indeed walk away because I consider those "sins" my responsibilty and no one else's.

If you had actually met the Creator, you would not have taken Him so lightly. You would leave the ball in His court rather than walked away.

I do not think that would be the case though I am biased. I will not be forced to choose that which I find distasteful and which goes against my upbringing.

You have not yet chosen.

Let us not play the game of telling me what I have and have not done as you are not qualified to make that judgement.I left these issues of muddy thinking long ago and my life suits me fine.

I suppose it is agree to disagree time.Be well big guy.

A centipede was happy quite, until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised his doubts to such a pitch
He fell distracted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-10-2005 12:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:

Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020