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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 23 of 381 (175097)
01-08-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Shaz
01-07-2005 12:04 PM


The Almighty
When I check out the usage of Almighty in the OT, it seems to be used as a name or title as opposed to an action.

Do you read the usage as people truly claiming that God IS omnipotent or just calling him most powerful like we call government officials Honorable?


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Shaz, posted 01-07-2005 12:04 PM Shaz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Shaz, posted 01-09-2005 2:34 AM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Nighttrain, posted 01-09-2005 2:53 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 381 (175310)
01-09-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
01-09-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Literal part timers
quote:
So who has the revelation of God about Scripture. According to Jesus, the person who has fruit...who produces results.
Are you speaking of the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galations?

Galations 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness , faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

quote:
Instead, you judge prophets by their results.
Can you give an example of how to use a prophets results to judge what they have written?


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 5:57 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by truthlover, posted 01-10-2005 5:32 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 381 (175636)
01-10-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by truthlover
01-10-2005 5:32 PM


Re: Literal part timers
quote:
Yes, but let's add "or said" to your question.
Unfortunately we can no longer hear the prophets themselves. I have no problem discerning the fruit of the spirit from a living person.

quote:
Was Paul a true or good prophet? His answer was to present the Corinthians for evaluation. Did the church/community of the Corinthians demonstrate a life that showed the influence of God the Creator?
I have no way of knowing how the Corinthians truly behaved.

quote:
Let's take Charles Stanley as an example, since he was mentioned by Phatboy. Is Charles Stanley a true prophet of God? The answer can be found in Atlanta, at the congregation he pastors. What can be seen there?
Since I am not part of that cogregation, what they do is of little use to me. They are too far away for me to truly know them. Any info I would receive would be written or over the television, two mediums that are easily manipulated.

I went on his cruise this summer to Alaska. It was an excellent cruise. I have read some of his books, listened to many of his sermons, and of course several of his talks on the ship. He seems to be a decent, generous man and good with people. He presents his religion very well, but do I think he is someone who speaks for God? No. I feel that some of his beliefs would make Jesus cringe.

quote:
This does leave the possibility that different people will be looking for different "good fruit."
Unfortunately, "good fruit" is relative. If my life demonstrates all the fuit of the spirit, but my interpretation of scripture is different than dogma and tradition, some would not consider me to be filled with the spirit.

You haven't given me a concrete method of interpretation without leaving me subject to the whims of men and religious dogma.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by truthlover, posted 01-10-2005 5:32 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by truthlover, posted 01-11-2005 12:35 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 62 of 381 (175764)
01-11-2005 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by truthlover
01-11-2005 12:35 AM


Re: Literal part timers
quote:
The Scriptures teach that the proof is in the pudding. Where there is a demonstration, arguments end. No one can argue with power and demonstration.
Which is why I extricate myself from churches. When their lives outside of church don't reflect the teachings within the church, I see no demonstration of power.

So if my life demonstrates the fruit of the spirit, then I have interpreted the scripture correctly, right?

That cruise I went on this summer was very interesting. The ship was full of Christians from various denominations. Because of different beliefs within churches, conversation about faith was difficult unless you found people who believed the same way. So the conversation at our dinner table really stayed away from discussing religion.

The theme of Charles Stanley's talks was patience. When we left the ship to reenter the real world, it was amazing how fast people forgot the lessons on patience. :)


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by truthlover, posted 01-11-2005 12:35 AM truthlover has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 235 of 381 (519020)
08-10-2009 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by JRTjr
07-30-2009 12:14 PM


If There is a God
quote:
However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:

A. This God may have a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made?
B. That if this God did communicate with his creation, in written form, that at least one of the worlds (so called) holy books is actually authored by God using men as secretaries?
C. God’s law supersedes all other laws?
D. That we will have to answer for our actions (good and bad) at some point.
E. That this God’s standards are what we will be judged by, not our own?


No

A. He could be flying by the seat of his pants.
B. Nope, could have been lost in the plunderings.
C. There's no way to tell what laws are from a god and which are not.
D. The culture determines good and bad. These change.
E. Again the standards are unknown. We only have the standards of man.

The human imagination can imagine anything, but that doesn't mean it's true.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by JRTjr, posted 07-30-2009 12:14 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:59 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 240 of 381 (519749)
08-16-2009 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:59 PM


Re: If There is a God
quote:
The point I was making here is that ‘IF’ God is ‘real’ (–adjective true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent: the real reason for an act. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary, ideal, or fictitious: a story taken from real life. Being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary: The events you will see in the film are real and not just made up. Being actually such; not merely so-called: a real victory. Genuine; not counterfeit, artificial, or imitation; authentic: a real antique; a real diamond; real silk.{Dictionary.com, emphases added by me}) then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?
Nope didn't miss what you were saying.
You said in Message 232: However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:
and proceeded with a list and I said no, your list doesn't stand to reason.

quote:
then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?
No. Mere existence doesn't make them true. My list could just as easily be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:59 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 242 of 381 (519794)
08-17-2009 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:31 PM


If God Is Real
quote:
One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.
There's that "if" again.

Actually if God is real, then God is real. Existence doesn't automatically imply choice. There is no choice to make unless the real God himself makes his prescence clearly known to the human race today and gives them a choice. God may not want to lead anymore or care whether we do things his way or not.

What does this have to do with God claiming omnipotence in the Bible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:31 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 249 of 381 (521086)
08-25-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by JRTjr
08-24-2009 12:44 AM


Probable vs Possible
quote:
I am not saying that the “Mere existence” (of God) ‘makes’ these statements true. I am saying that it is “possible that the things I mentioned are true? ” (It is also possible that the things you mentioned are true; however we should look into how likely each proposition is.)
Being likely means a high probability of occurring or being true. So show me that your list is more likely than mine to be true. Both lists are in Message 235.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by JRTjr, posted 08-24-2009 12:44 AM JRTjr has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 275 of 381 (522048)
08-31-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by JRTjr
08-30-2009 6:13 PM


Re: Good and Evil
quote:
The only thing necessary to receive forgiveness for ones wrong doing is to “believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on)” Jesus as your savior.
Actually the only thing necessary to receive forgiveness for ones wrong doing is to repent. Repentance is what Jesus preached along with the good news of the coming of the kingdom.

quote:
The “evil force” in your soul is there because of your rebellion against God; not because of a “rib-woman” being deceived by a “talking snake to eat from a magical tree.”; Although mankind’s rebellion did start there.
No it isn't. Our evil inclinations have nothing to do with rebellion against any god. Good and evil are part of life.

quote:
To stifle one’s own pride, and humble one’s self before the Creator of the universes is no “cakewalk”. It is literally the hardest thing anyone will ever do.
Not necessarily. What is hard for one person may be easy for another.

quote:
It is humbling one’s self before God and accepting that there is no ritual, no journey you can take, and no action what so ever, that you can take, that can absolve you from your gilt before a Holy God.
Sure there is. Repentance. Meaning one has truly changed their way of doing things and doesn't continue wrong behavior.

quote:
Only by accepting the fact that Jesus took on your sin (your gilt) by dieing on the cross do you escape the punishment for your own rebellion against His righteous decrees.
Jesus didn't take on our sins. That's not really possible. We don't escape punishment for wrongs that require punishment. Only repentance brings forgiveness.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Which righteous decrees are you referring to?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by JRTjr, posted 08-30-2009 6:13 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-01-2009 5:01 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 277 of 381 (522094)
09-01-2009 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Otto Tellick
09-01-2009 5:01 AM


Omnipotence
quote:
Actually, whether or not there is really any direct biblical justification for asserting God's omni-whatever is irrelevant. The fact that people make these assertions of "omni" attributes, as if they had any meaning at all, is completely absurd regardless where these ideas come from.
Message 14 showed the meaning of omnipotence today.

WordReference.com writes:

omnipotent
adjective
1 almighty, all-powerful, omnipotent
having unlimited power

almighty
adjective
1 almighty all-powerful, omnipotent
having unlimited power

Merriam Webster Dictionary writes:

Omnipotent
1 often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence

Almighty
1 often capitalized : having absolute power over all
2 : relatively unlimited in power
3 : great in magnitude or seriousness

Unfortunately the meaning of the word translated as almighty, Shadday, in the OT doesn't carry the same meaning.

1) almighty, most powerful
a) Shaddai, the Almighty (of God)

In the NT the word translated as almighty, pantokratōr, carries this meaning:

1) he who holds sway over all things
2) the ruler of all
3) almighty: God

So again the meaning of almighty changes with the times.

The OT meaning carries the idea of powerful as in strength and the NT meaning carries the idea of ruling power.

I don't think either of the original meanings carries the idea of unlimited power as in God can do anything whether strength or authority. The people referred to their God as the most powerful. Just another way to refer to one's leader. We address politicians as honorable. It doesn't mean they are.

It is obvious in the writings of the Bible that God does not have unlimited power or omniscient.

Meaning of omniscient today.

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Religion has to keep God ahead of mankind's knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-01-2009 5:01 AM Otto Tellick has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by greyseal, posted 09-01-2009 11:25 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1794 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 279 of 381 (522147)
09-01-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by greyseal
09-01-2009 11:25 AM


Re: Omnipotence
quote:
Whichever way you spin it, he wasn't omniscient (all-knowing) because he genuinely seemed surprised that Adam and Eve ate the apple of knowledge, and genuinely worried (so much so he cast them out) that they might eat the tree of eternal life which, if death didn't exist "before the fall" wouldn't have been necessary for them to live forever.
Exactly! If we can surprise God, then he isn't omniscient.

People say God is all knowing, but what kind of knowledge does God actually have?

Factual or Propositional: Just the facts.
Procedural: Knowing how to accomplish a task.
Experiential: From direct experience.

To be all knowing, God would need to be capable of all three aspects of knowledge.

Now Iano says that God will always be wiser than man, but wisdom develops through experiential knowledge.

Can a nonphysical God transcending time and space have experiential knowledge of sex and other physical acts?
Can God experience raising children?
Can God experience loss of a mate?
Can God experience pain, hunger, etc.?

As easily as pain is inflicted on humans by God, I would say no. How can God advise humans if he can't experience?

When it comes to procedural, I also have my doubts. God has been known to give procedural information to humans, but he seems lacking when it comes to managing civilization. When one has to have their own son killed to clean up a mess that if done right the first time should not have happened, then the skills aren't there.

Factual knowledge is considered a given since God supposedly can see into the future, but the Bible stories don't support that idea either.

Genesis 18
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

God heard the 911s but had to go down and check it out.

The Bible stories clearly show that God can be surprised and he has to "physically" check on details. That puts a crimp in the omniscient capabilities.

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by greyseal, posted 09-01-2009 11:25 AM greyseal has not yet responded

  
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