Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
God tells lies to test Israel.
actually, that would be truths.
the conditions are that: a. the prophet's word's are TRUE b. he says "follow other gods"
i agree with the sentiment of your post, but i don't think that's the best example.
Here is an example of GOD sending a prophet with true prophecy but that is attributed to someone other than the Hebrew GOD. Yet according to the passage, the prophet is sent by GOD as a test. GOD is lying to the people.
no, god is telling the truth. the importance of the passage is not whether or not what the prophet says is true, or whether god is being decietful, but that you should not follow other gods, even if there are signs that they might be real or true.
god is being decietful and tricky (and petty and jealous), yes, but he's not lying. you can decieve with the truth.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 02-05-2005 16:26 AM
But God is saying to the people "in order for me to test you, I need to send a prophet to tell you a lie".
no no the prophet tells the truth, but suggests something against god's wishes. neither is telling a lie, but one is asking the israelites to do something wrong.
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
the essential meaning of the verse is that sometimes the prophesies and sayings of other religions are true, but that you should not go chasing them just because they sound like they know what they're talking about.
Yes, it is true that God said he would lie, but it is still a lie.
it's decietful, yes. but there is no lie here.
Also, I think that God would have to lie to the prophet who is passing on the 'test'. It is hard to imagine that the prophet would go willingly to tell a false prophecy knowing what the punishment would be.
no, again. the requirement is that prophesy is NOT false.
So, if the prophet converses with Yahweh, and Yahweh tells him a false prophecy in order to test Israel
no. i mean, yes, but that's not what THIS verse is talking about. it's talking about TRUE prophesies that are said to come from another source. the prophesy itself is true. they're talking about that first set of conditions: "Therefore, the prophecy could come true but if the prophet says that it came from Chemosh, then the prophet was to be killed"
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
i disagree. the test lies in prophesies claimed to be of other sources. however, the point is moot, since there is other evidence in the bible that they did think god could (and did) lie. and god is most certainly decietful, as this verse indicates.
look at it in the context of genesis 3. god told the lie there. the serpent told the truth, but did it decietfully.
Yes, it a case of self preservation. It also illustrates the worthlessness of prophecy as it appears that many prophets from many gods were passing on good prophecies.
What a great way of dismissing other gods.
precisely. deuteronomy is a STRONGLY isolationist text. it damns even israel, in favor of judah. the primary goal of the text, i would say, is the expulsion of foriegners and their religions.
But there is a lie. In order for it to be true then there has to be a lie in there. Either the prophecy is untrue or the prophet is not speaking in Yahweh’s name.
we're dealing with two sets of conditions.
is the prophesy true?
is the prophet speaking in yahweh's name?
if either answer is no, you kill him. the verse in question deals with TRUE prophesy not spoken on yahweh's behalf. simple concept here. there is no lie, except possibly on the part of the prophet. whether god lied to him or not is not stated. i'm just saying this is a weak point, especially since the prophesy is TRUE in this case, not FALSE.
Nope, the prophecy spoken in Yahweh’s name CAN be false.
i never said it couldn't. just that that's not the case in the verse in question.
How do we know that the LORD isn’t testing Israel here?
good question. here's a better one: what of all the unfilled and broken prophesies in the bible?
I understand completely what you are saying, but I just find it difficult to agree with. Perhaps I am not explaining it as well in text as I am in my head! LOL
i dunno, i'm not sure you do. i'm not saying god is incapable of lying, or that he does not. far from it, actually. i'm just saying that the original verse in question was not a good example of it, since the prophesy is true, just in the wrong name.
But I don't understand your assertion that the prophecy is true if the prophet is claiming that it came to him from another god.
one more time. there are two qualities of a true prophet: 1. his prophesies come true 2. he claims to speak for yahweh.
now, if he claims to speak for yahweh, and his prophesies fail, you kill him. if his prophesies are true, but he does not speak for yahweh, it's yahweh testing israel. if neither is the case, well, he's not a very good prophet.
the verse in question deals with the second set of conditions: his prophesies are true, but he does not speak for yahweh. this is not the same are god lying to the people of israel. god is not lying to anyone (except maybe the prophet). god is sending a valid prophet from another religion. part of the requirement for this set of conditions is that his prophesies come true. the test is that his prophesies are completely valid and indeed happen, but that he is not speaking for yahweh. it is god tempting israel away from the true faith, as a test.
how is this hard to understand?
now, the more appropriate indictment here is that god tests us, and tempts his children. in later books, we have satan for this, an increasingly separate and stronger entity.
Anyway, what about some better verses like: Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
yeah, there's lot of stuff about god lying in the bible. i'm just saying that THIS example was not one of them. it's decietful and tricky, sure. but not a lie. the truth can be misleading.
who told the truth in the garden of eden, god or the serpent?
It is commonly believed that God was referring to spiritual death, which did occur that very day.
that's nice, where in genesis does it say that? see, god says "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." it's DIE as in "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." is this verse talking about spiritual death too, because it's all the same word. god even says "SURELY die." as in DIE die, which is what the hebrew says: it emphasizes things by repetition.
the verse is clearly talking about physical death. this spiritual death thing was invented to explain god's lie, because according to the text he doesn't fulfill his word.
God is concerned more about your spiritual condition than your physical condition.
the authors of the ot didn't seem to think so.
Perhaps He had considered physical death as a penalty and relented and gave them a reprieve
or perhaps he's just like any parent who says "don't do that or i'll KILL you" meaning punish severly. not actual death of any kind.
What would be considered a great kindness if it came from a human judge is now deemed a fault in God?
some people would consider that a fault in an earthly judge. however, you've dodged the original question.
god says "you'll die."
the snake says "you won't die, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like god."
who told the truth, according to the text?
If you were sentenced to death and the presiding judge called you back in court and said "I've changed my mind, I'm going to let you live", would you call him a liar?
where does god say he changed his mind? in fact, i'll go one step further, where does god say it's a punishment? it only says eat it, and you'll die. as in it will kill you.
Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to evil. They had already known good through God.
no, now you're making stuff up. what's the tree called again?
They certainly did not become like God in any desirable way
reading the passage in question would help:
quote:Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
although satan sure made it sound good,
when did we start talking about satan? i never mentioned satan. it's a serpent, a snake. the story is even an etiology of why snakes have no legs, and stick their tongues out. does satan do that?
And they did die physically eventually.
yes, but as indicated by the end of genesis 3, they were going to anyways.
quote:Gen 3:22 ...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
also, eventually is not the question:
quote:Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What part or parts of the Bible are you referring to? I'm interested as in the previous posts our spider friendly expert argued very convincingly that God did not lie in the prophet example, and I think I've presented a good case for the Genesis 2:17 verse. Pending rebuttal of course.
quote:1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And [the LORD] said, Thou shalt entice [him], and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do [even] so.
i'm sure a few other examples will be found too. god also fails to punish lies (or rather half truths) on the part of abraham regarding his "sister" sarah. this scheme seems to work so well and reward abraham to such an extent that he does it three times if i recall, and isaac even does it once.
God didn't include every thought and action of His in the Bible, just because something is not specifically written does not mean that is not plausible.
yes, but there's what the story says, and there's "just making stuff up." this whole spiritual death thing? it's just making stuff up. the whole idea of man as an entity existing after death is completely anachronistic for the writing of genesis. there was just death, and the grave. possibly some kind of underworld (ala hades) but not in the sense of even being who you were in life.
It may be the same word in both places but it doesn't have the same emphasis,[which is denoted in more ways than repetition] indicating a different meaning. In Genesis 5:5 it says "and he died." not "and he surely died!"
the surely, or the extra "die" in hebrew, is there to emphasize that god is serious. he means DEATH. not disconnection from him, DEATH. the same kind of death adam had several hundred years later.
I didn't dodge the question, I presented plausible arguments, and what does it matter whether God said it was a punishment or not? My answer didn't state that was a fact, it was a possibility I raised.
it matters a lot if it's a punishment. everyone reads it that way. he might have just been saying the fruit was poisonous.
The original question "who lied, God or satan?" was answered : satan. They did die spiritually, and they did not become like God.
show me the spiritual death? you're making it up, i know you are.
and as for not becoming like god, well. i've caught you on that one. if they didn't becoming like god, then god's lying when he says they did.
quote:Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us
and my original question was "who lied, god or THE SERPENT." please show me where this satan guy comes into play? i think you're making stuff up again.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 02-19-2005 04:04 AM
PS - A 'spiritual' death is no more supportable than the assertion you make above. It is clear that the deity's prediction failed while the serpent's came to pass. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to figure out why the story reads this way and share your newfound knowledge in this forum. Yes?
i've heard a suggestion that the bible is truly the greatest test of faith, and that satan had more to do with it's authorship than god. why else would god be painted a liar and cruel dictator in the opening, outwitted by a lowly serpent who is then punished for his subtlety -- as god created him.
The serpent, not satan, was used as an example of wisdom. The bronze serpent was a reminder of sin's penalty. Which Jesus paid when He was lifted up on the cross.
and it is the serpent in genesis 2 and 3, NOT satan. same word for the kind of serpent moses's staff becomes.
and the bronze serpent (not the same kind, venomous) is not a reminder of sin's penalty, it was used to heal the israelites -- "just like jesus!"
I think you meant Romans 5:14 and the complete sentence continues, "even those who had not sinned in the same way as Adam." There were no sinless people. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
except for good old job. he didn't sin.
I am not trying to rewrite scripture, I am trying to interpret it as one complete, consistent message from God, which is what I believe it is.
not read much of it, have we? i can't get more than a chapter into the first book without spotting inconsistencies. if there's one thing the bible is NOT it's consistent.
I think Adam and Eve received a tiny bit of knowledge of evil for giving up eternal life in the warm embrace of a loving God.
good and evil. as in awareness, and the ability to judge between the two. the story is about the origin of moral choice, and conciousness (and human emotion). it explains the tradeoffs for conciousness: a lifetime of work, pain and heartache in raising children, and marital strife.
if you missed that aspect to the store -- well, you missed the point. the point is that there is something of god in us, and we are like god in some way that makes us special, and that it is worth the pain and sacrifice and separation from god's paradise.
whoever told you it's about guilt and death is trying to sell you a religion.
Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary. Is that because he was so truthful?
"satan" MEANS adversary. and it's STILL not satan in the story. it's a serpent. satan is an angel, probably a son of god. a serpent is an animal that goes about his belly licking the dust. does satan do that? no.
it is also completely possible, indeed very effective, to decieve with the truth. politicians do it all the time.
Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there
that's written somewhere between 2000 and 800 years after genesis was written, depending on the dates you believe in. it's an editorial opinion of the text. and paul... well. he's another discussion.