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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 232 of 381 (517232)
07-30-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 1:42 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Doctrbill writes:

“Why is it that Jesus is coming back to kill me and my friends and members of my family who aren't 'good' Christians? Do you think that makes me want to believe in him?”

Dear Doctrbill,

I know you were asking this of someone else, so, please forgive me for putting my two cense in.

I believe, with this question, you are working from two misconceptions.

The first is that you are assuming that there really is no ‘Real God’, and therefore all religious material is just historic documents, myths, and fables.

If your assumption is correct (I.E. there is no God) then you are justified in your assumptions of the authors intents written in these manuscripts.

Not only that, but if God is a myth, then nothing we do really ever matters. In fifty years 90% of the worlds population today will be forgotten, 99% in a hundred years, and in a thousand years the percentage of people remembered will be synonymous with zero.

So why be concerned with what others believe or do? If someone wants to wipe out a certain ‘class’ or ‘race’ of people what’s it going to matter (in the long run)? If there is not God then Government is the highest authority and right and wrong is judged solely on whether it is legal or illegal.

However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:

A. This God may have a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made?
B. That if this God did communicate with his creation, in written form, that at least one of the worlds (so called) holy books is actually authored by God using men as secretaries?
C. God’s law supersedes all other laws?
D. That we will have to answer for our actions (good and bad) at some point.
E. That this God’s standards are what we will be judged by, not our own?

The second is that you’re looking at God as just a Judge who is out to get you for crimes you didn’t even know you committed.

God will Judge all, however, He has not kept His Laws a secret. It is only our arrogance that keeps us from seeing, and obeying God’s Laws.

To keep my post short I’ll just give you one example.

“13You shall not commit murder.” (Exodus 20: 3, Amplified Bible)

A humble person will admit that the malicious taking of a persons life is just plain wrong. It takes an arrogant person to say that someone else’s life is not worth anything so it’s O.K. to kill them.

One last thing about this Question.

In the tribulation (the time of judgment you’re speaking of) everyone whom God is dealing harshly with has both done things against His Laws and rejected the ‘Get out of Jail Free’ card (Namely Jesus’ sacrifice for their sins). Do you not think God to be Just in Judging His creation by His standard?

Doctrbill writes:

As a long time atheist (reformed Christian) I can testify to the power of prayer, the reality of divine guidance, and the still small voice of conscience. These phenomena are common to humanity.

I would say that “These phenomena are common to humanity” because God put them in all of mankind. Just because a ‘CPU’ is common to all computers does not negate the fact that someone placed it there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 1:42 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by doctrbill, posted 07-30-2009 5:13 PM JRTjr has responded
 Message 235 by purpledawn, posted 08-10-2009 2:54 PM JRTjr has responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 234 of 381 (519016)
08-10-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by doctrbill
07-30-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Doctrbill,

“but that�s a pile o� pucky.”
“You might never have been born. Does that matter to you?”

These are not arguments against the points I am making rather they are your opinion and therefore not logical arguments.

What you or I believe does not change what is. I could say ‘everything you just said is a lie’ but I have not proven anything. ‘Facts’, popular or not, are still ‘Facts’. We ignore ‘Facts’ to our own peril.

By the way: Whether or not my life mattered to me, or not, does not change the fact that life is meaningless in the grand scheme of things if there is no God.

“Government has always been the highest authority. Right and wrong have always been judged according to the legalities.”

So, what you’re saying is that Government(s) established the “Law of Gravity”, or the laws that govern “Electromagnetism”?

I think not, Yes, Governments do make laws (have authority) and are charged with upholding those laws; however, the laws of Nature, and Natures God, supersede Governmental law. This is why the Allied Nations were justified in wiping out the Nazi regime; and why it was wrong of the Nazis to exterminate over twelve million people even though at that time (In Germany) it was ‘legal’.

One last thing, you reference several places in scripture (The Bible) where God requires individuals to be put to dearth or where God Himself says He is going to kill individuals or groups of people; and you call Him “a bloodthirsty deity”.

Someone whom is “bloodthirsty” is killing people maliciously without justification. Two problems with your “bloodthirsty deity” hypothesis.

One, He is justified in His actions. The Creator of the Universes has all authority over His creation. In other words, God has the right (the authority) to kill or require governments to kill whomever He wishes. No one has the right to tell the Creator of the universe that He can’t do this or has no right to do that.

Two, God is not just randomly killing whomever just happens to get it the way or sitting in heaven waiting for you to mess-up so he can strike you down just for the fun of it.

The death penalty, in these instances, accomplishes two things. One it punishes sin. Two it shows how serious sin is to God. We see ourselves as better then other. I my think myself better than the drunk on the street or the man that beats his wife because I do not do these thing; however, God does not compare my sin to your sin or Hitler’s, he compares my sinful state to His Holiness.

In that light, none of us are “good” enough. Under those standards all of us deserve eternal separation from our Creator, however , God loves us; so much so that He Himself became the only scarifies that would wash away our transgressions. The Great Creator became the atonement for our Sin through Jesus Christ’s scarifies of the Cross.

bloodâ‹…thirstâ‹…y

–adjective
1. Eager to shed blood; murderous: to capture a bloodthirsty criminal.
2. Enjoying or encouraging bloodshed or violence, esp. as a spectator or clamorous partisan: the bloodthirsty urgings of the fight fans.

sin
–noun
1. Transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.

aâ‹…toneâ‹…ment
–noun
1. Satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (Sometimes initial capital letter ) Theology. The doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3. Christian Science. The experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4. Archaic. Reconciliation; agreement.

www.Dictionary.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by doctrbill, posted 07-30-2009 5:13 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 238 of 381 (519722)
08-16-2009 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by greyseal
08-12-2009 3:22 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal,

Thank you for responding to my posting.

Greyseal writes:

I don't really know why you felt it necessary to write down what bloodythirsty, sin and atonement meant - I think almost everybody reading your words understand them.


My reason for defining these terms is because I want to be vary specific with what I am saying.

The point I was trying to make was that the Creator of the universes is not some bloodthirsty, vengeful god waiting, with baited breath, to find one little reason to snuff you out. He is patient and long suffering wanting all to repent of their transgressions (Sin) and accept His free gift of Grace.

However, God has given us free will. This means that we can chose to do things our way or chose to do things His way. God has told us the consequences of both choices. Now this does not mean you can do what you want with no consequences. If you chose to do things your way don’t blame God when you suffer for it. (If you chose to put you hand in the fire, don’t blame God when you get burned)

God has never given anyone (group or individual) the right to “commit mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, pillage and rape”. God has, however, given the nation of Israel, at certain times the responsibility of carrying out His righteous Judgments. In other words God has, at times, Judged that certain societies have transgressed His law to the point that wiping them our is the best way to preserve mankind. (Like removing an appendix to save the life of the patient) Note also that God only had Israel wipeout totally one or two city states or groups of people. Most of the time he had them invade and conquer but not wipeout completely.

Greyseal writes:

The fact is, we think that when your god tells you to murder women and children, to kill all the manfolk, to burn, rape and pillage, that that happens to fulfill the exact meaning of bloodthirsty.

Two things here; One, it’s not just “my god”, I am speaking of the Creator of the universes. The Creator of the universes’ authority out strips all others. So whether or not I call Him “my God” does not change the Fact that His authority gives Him the right to do whatever He chooses to do whether or not you or I approve of it. This means that when the State of Texas executes a man for murdering innocent people we are doing what God has required of us. (Lev. 24:17-22) The State of Texas is not “murdering women and children, killing all the man folk, .. burning, raping and pillaging” just making absolutely sure that these individuals can never harm anyone again. Death is the righteous penalty for murder not because its ‘fun to kill’, but because it’s the only punishment that fits the crime.

Second, God has never told anyone it is O.K. to rape. Sensationalizing what God has said only shows how poor your stance is. If you’re going to argue from a logical and scientific perspective, please stick to the facts. Sensationalization may make good fiction, but it makes for poor debate.

One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by greyseal, posted 08-12-2009 3:22 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by greyseal, posted 08-17-2009 6:36 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 242 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2009 9:44 AM JRTjr has not yet responded
 Message 244 by themasterdebator, posted 08-19-2009 3:59 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 239 of 381 (519724)
08-16-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by purpledawn
08-10-2009 2:54 PM


Re: If There is a God
Dear Purpledawn,

purpledawn writes:

The human imagination can imagine anything, but that doesn't mean it's true.


I agree with this statement completely; however, you seem to have missed, completely, what I was saying.

I would like to apologize for not being clearer.

The point I was making here is that ‘IF’ God is ‘real(–adjective true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent: the real reason for an act. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary, ideal, or fictitious: a story taken from real life. Being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary: The events you will see in the film are real and not just made up. Being actually such; not merely so-called: a real victory. Genuine; not counterfeit, artificial, or imitation; authentic: a real antique; a real diamond; real silk.{Dictionary.com, emphases added by me}) then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by purpledawn, posted 08-10-2009 2:54 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2009 8:41 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 245 of 381 (520785)
08-24-2009 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by greyseal
08-17-2009 6:36 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal and Purpledawn,

Purpledawn writes:

No. Mere existence doesn't make them true. My list could just as easily be true.

I am not saying that the “Mere existence” (of God) ‘makes’ these statements true. I am saying that it is “possible that the things I mentioned are true? ” (It is also possible that the things you mentioned are true; however we should look into how likely each proposition is.)

I understand that just because God exists that that, in and of itself, dose not ‘necessitate’ these statement being true; just that it opens up the possibility that these statement are true.

Greyseal writes:

I like your honesty. It scares me, I'd get a restraining order if we lived near each other, but I respect your honesty.

ordering your followers to commit mass murder, genocide, etc, etc sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me.

I’m not sure why you think you would need a “restraining order”; even if I were part of the military you would have to be a terrorist; committing treason; or working on behalf of a foreign power that we were actively at war with to have cause to fear me.

The, so called, ‘bloodthirsty’ acts you’re complaining about were directed to Israel’s enemies and to be carried out by Israel’s military forces. Their military was not as organized as, say, ours is today; but these were military objectives carried out by Israel’s militia (for a lack of a better word).

So you should have no reason to fear little old me. ;-}

Let me explain why God is not bloodthirsty this way.

When I was five years old my father came into the bathroom where my brother (one year younger then me) and I were taking a bath one day. He sat down on the commode and opened the box he had brought with him; taking out the pieces of our favorite race car set he began to brake them into small pieces and through them way.

Now, if I told you nothing else about my father or the circumstances surrounding this incident you may come to the conclusion that my dad was being vary mean to us. You may thing that he was a vicious angry man; that he had no right to tear up our toys like that.

However, the reason he did this is because of what we had done earlier in the day. You see, my brother and I had gone into a neighbor’s yard and took our time destroying their garden. We weren’t doing it maliciously we were just playing around. Having fun throwing tomatoes up against the garage and generally destroying everything in the garden.

I learned then to respect other people’s property.

The point of my story (true story) is that before you decide that God is a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” you mite look at the big picture. Look at everything that the Bible has to say about God, and mankind.

Greyseal writes:

1a) yeah, your god. Proof your deity created everything is required. There are quite a few gods out there who'd like to step up and tell you how wrong you are - followers of Thor, Wotan, Zeus, FSM, Xenu, Krishna, Jupiter...

I do agree with you on this point. There are many gods out there that claim to be ‘the One true God’ and evidence is necessary to determine which one is. Will the ‘Real God’ please stand up? ;-}

I would hope that once we get passed the “Your God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly.” name calling, we could explore what, if anything, destiquishes my God from all the others; and whether or not there is sufficient evidence to prove which god is the real one.

Greyseal writes:

Judges 21. Need I say more? I could.

Ya, I guess you do. I do not see anywhere, in Judges 21, that God says ‘Thou shalt do rap’.

Greyseal writes:

If your god is real, he is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly.

O.K.?!

Two things here.

One. My God is not a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature”. You may view Him as such, but that’s between you and Him.

Second. Even if “My God” is real, and He was a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” you should be more afraid of Him ‘utterly rejecting’ you then you ‘utterly rejecting’ Him. After all, ‘If’ the Real God is a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” he may just make your life miserable, or just kill you, for being obstinate.

My point here is that the fact that God has not struck you down for calling Him a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” belies your notion that He is those things.

So either God does not actually exist or He is not the “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” you think Him to be.

I believe the latter.

Greyseal writes:

If he (God) is not real, you lot who feel so superior and smug as you hand down life and death judgements in the name of some santa-claus fairy story are some scary, misguided people.

On this point I can agree with you; however, that is a vary big ‘IF’.

I am confused about one thing though; are we talking about a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty” god or a “Santa Claus fairy story” god?

One last point here; I am in no way superior to you or anyone else. I say with Paul that “15The saying is sure and true and worthy of full and universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus (the Messiah) came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.”

(I Timothy 1: 15 - The Amplified Bible)

Greyseal writes:

Excuse me, but I'll be over here, in the rational side of the universe, where consistency matters.

I can see where people can look at the things I am saying and think that I am being inconsistent. People have even looked at the Bible and said that it is full of inconsistencies. However, I would like you to consider one thing.

The world around us has many, seeming, inconsistencies in it (how can light be both a particle and a wave). Does this prove that the universe is not a rational place? I would say no; it just means that we, with everything we know, do not know everything. So, we should look at the evidence, without pre-conceptions (as hard as that is for us all), and figure out if these things actually contradict each other or if they are just paradoxes. I would also suggest this method with respect to the Bible.

Edited by JRTjr, : My apologies, I mislabel some of the quotes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by greyseal, posted 08-17-2009 6:36 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by greyseal, posted 08-24-2009 3:36 AM JRTjr has not yet responded
 Message 249 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2009 8:11 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 247 of 381 (521028)
08-25-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by themasterdebator
08-19-2009 3:59 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Themasterdebator,

First, thank you for your posting; I think you and I are going to have a lot of fun debating.

Themasterdebator writes:

What if the god that exists is not the Christian God? What if he is a god of rationality and logic that will reward those who base their belief on reason and he hates faith? Then it would very much matter if you believe.

Or, what if God is a sadistic jealous mischievous bastard?

No matter ‘Whom’ or, for that matter, ‘What’ God is, or what He says or does, my point still remains “If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist; whether or not you believe does not matter.

Themasterdebator writes:

Jewish people to go around committing genocide and conquering other races for no reason.

If there were “no reason”, as you put it, the fact still remains that “If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way.

I would, however, say that ‘If God is real’ and ‘He required anyone to do anything’ He would have a reason for it. He may not explain Himself to us, but He would have a reason none the less. A Being of such Power, Authority, and Wisdom would have a reason for doing the things He did; would you not agree?

Themasterdebator writes:

Maybe the God that exists will reward evil and punish good. We have no way of knowing what some unevidenced being would or wouldn't do.

You are right that we would have “no way of knowing what some un-evidenced being would or wouldn't do.”{emphases added}

However, this is not the case with the Creator of the universes. There is evidence of His existence (I would even go so far as to say ‘overwhelming’ evidence). There is also evidence of how God operates inside and outside of our universe.

I’ll give you an example: Threw scientific discovery we have found many ‘Laws’ that govern our universe; although we have found these ‘Laws’ to be paradoxical, at times, we know that it is impossible for a law of ‘Physics’ to directly contradict, say, a ‘Law’ of ‘Biology’; or vice versa.

Since we have evidence that these ‘Laws’ have not change from the foundation of the universe, we can conclude that the ‘Real God’ will not change his mined just to fit the situation.

We can also conclude that He is a God of ‘Law’; not lawlessness; and because natural ‘Laws’ do not contradict each other we can deduce that God’s ‘Laws’ will neither contradict each other nor the ‘Laws’ of nature.

We can also except that anything that the Creator does may have paradoxical applications; in other words, some of the things He does may not make sense to us until we gain more understanding of what He is doing and/or Whom He is.

Themasterdebator writes:

You could end up suffering for eternity because you believe in a righteous God. Think of it this way. Which God is going to punish your more harshly, a just one or an unjust vindictive God? You would be much better off worshiping an evil god because he would punish you far more harshly than a righteous one under this line of reasoning.

You have a few good points here; however, I would like to suggest that whatever God deems ‘Good’ is what ‘Good’ is, and whatever God deems ‘Righteous’ is what ‘Righteous’ is. I would say that God’s standards are what define what ‘Right’ and what ‘Wrong’ are. This goes back to “If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way.”

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

( Romans 1: 20-22 - The Amplified Bible)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by themasterdebator, posted 08-19-2009 3:59 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2009 1:13 PM JRTjr has responded
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 251 of 381 (521334)
08-27-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by greyseal
08-24-2009 3:36 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal,

Greyseal writes:

Of course it's possible. Ask any atheist if it's possible, they'll say yes. Ask if it's probable or likely, and you'll get a different answer.

Some people have used this to say that atheism is not a rational position - those people would be wrong. It is possible, one could say, that there is a teapot orbiting Mars that is too small to see with even our most powerful telescopes. Now, you cannot prove there is not...but it is possible, yes?

So we can agree that it is “possible that the things I mentioned are true? ” now, as you mention, we can go to how probable it is that each of these things (the ones I mentioned and the one you mentioned) are true.

Let’s start with the first one. If God is real then either “God has a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made? ” or “He is flying by the seat of his pants. ” Considering the number and complexity of the Laws that govern this universe I believe it is reasonable to conclude that God is not ‘flying by the seat of His pants” rather that He has a “purpose or reason for creating everything”.

Greyseal writes:

Soldiers scare me for the same reason that fanatics scare me - they think they have the permission, the right and the duty to do things that under "normal" conditions people would not.

So, I take it that you’re scared of Police Officers, Federal Agents, Firemen, etc. Each of these positions requires that individuals (Policemen, Agents, or Firemen) do things that individuals, would not or could not legally do on their own.

There are two kinds of fear; ‘rational fear’ and ‘irrational fear’. ‘Rational fear’ causes one to be cautious in dangerous situations. ‘Irrational fear’ causes one to be afraid of things that, more than likely, will not hurt us.

There is no reason to fear a person whom actually believes and follows what the Bible says. In other word, if you lived next to me there is no chance that I am going to come to your house one day and kill you and or your family.

Greyseal writes:

The issue I have with religious fanatics is how far they take things over such as naming a teddy bear after a boy, who happens to share the name "muhammed" with a religious icon. Or the bombs and death-threats over ten silly cartoons (several of which were not critical of their prophet, one was rather positive). Or the author who had a religious fatwah handed down to him over his book, "the satanic verses", or the film-maker who was shot over his contraversial movie...

Agreed!

Individuals whom claim that God has told them to commit acts like you describe are not acting in accordance with Scripture (the Canonized Bible). Individuals, under Gods Law, are not aloud to kill people. Period!

The government is only allowed to execute people under certain circumstances. (War and the braking of certain Laws)

Greyseal writes:

Religious people get inclined to add "blasphemy" to your short list of reasons to kill, and blasphemy is an easy thing to commit, and then it matters that it's so easy to demand blood.


The reason that ‘Blasphemy’ is on the “short list of reasons to kill” is that it is the height of pride to mock God by using His Name slanderously.

I would like to point out here that if God were the “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty” god you seem to think Him to be would not the list of reasons to have someone killed be longer?

Greyseal writes:

So they took the virgins.

Of course, you could say, if you were an apologetic, that obviously the girls wanted husbands and it wasn't rape, right? right?

No!

My point has not changed: God did not tell these men to go do these things; nor did He tell them to take wives of these people. The Israelites were acting on their own accord (I.E. Apart from God’s instructions.) I reiterate that “I do not see anywhere, in Judges 21, that God says ‘Thou shalt do rap’”!

Greyseal writes:


My point here is that the fact that God has not struck you down for calling Him a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” belies your notion that He is those things.

...or he doesn't exist. Or isn't what you think he is.

So either God does not actually exist or He is not the “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” you think Him to be.

..or see previous answer.

So, you’re saying that ether God “doesn't exist” or He is a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature” but he’s going to be kind to you? Because?? I mean; you would think that a “bloodthirsty, murderous, petty” god would jump at the chance to strike you down. Would he not?

Greyseal writes:

The Bible IS full of inconsistencies. If you didn't have your preconceptions that the bible is the word of god, you'd probably see that too.

O.K. If the Bible is “full of inconsistencies” Why don’t you run one or two past me? But please, make sure that it is actually an inconsistency. I do not mean to be rude here; however, I have gone down this road before. Please see Message #35 (in another forum)

Greyseal writes:

If you could say why the fall happened if god knows all that could happen (ie, why it was bad, if it was necessary), whether god couldn't find adam and eve when they hid (if he knows all, how can they hide?) and so on, without saying "god works in mysterious ways" and in a logical manner, you'd go a lot further than most theists.

This I can do.

On the question of: “whether god couldn't find adam and eve when they hid (if he knows all, how can they hide?)

Do you remember being in school. (I’ve been out of school for twenty plus years. I won’t tell you how far over the twenty year mark that is.)

However, I remember sitting in class as the teacher droned on about something or other and then he or she would stop and ask us questions about the topic. (This was good for me because, unlike most of the other kids in my class, I was paying attention.)

Now, I ask the question; ‘was the teacher asking these questions because she did not know the answers?’ Or ‘was she asking the questions to prompt the class to think?’ In other words; were the questions for her benefit or ours?

See, when God asks a question, He is asking it for our benefit; not because He does not know the answer.

God knew exactly where they were; and why they were hiding. (Have you ever had a four year old hid partially behind a door thinking that; because they can’t see you; you can’t see them?)

The whole of creation is an object lesson for all of mankind; and the Angels for that matter.

(When God talks; even E.F. Hutton should listen.) ;-}


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 Message 246 by greyseal, posted 08-24-2009 3:36 AM greyseal has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 252 of 381 (521339)
08-27-2009 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by NosyNed
08-25-2009 1:13 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear NosyNed,

NosyNed writes:

To this God I will continue to apply the same as I would to an earthly tyrant


Two things here:

1. You assume that God is a tyrant. How many tyrants do you know that would allow Their own Son (a willing participant) to be sacrificed in your place to pay the penalty for your misconduct?

2. You (the creation) are setting standards for God (the Creator)?? How would you fell if the clay pot you just baked called you a tyrant and decided that you should be subject to it’s ideas of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’?

We, as God’s creation, are in no position to dictate what He ‘may’ or ‘may not’ do. Just as the pot has no authority over the potter.

20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)

21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? {Romans 9: 20,21 Amplified Bible}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2009 1:13 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 08-27-2009 4:31 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 255 by greyseal, posted 08-27-2009 5:09 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 256 by NosyNed, posted 08-27-2009 10:16 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 257 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 12:05 PM JRTjr has responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 259 of 381 (521935)
08-30-2009 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by cavediver
08-27-2009 4:31 AM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Cavediver,

Thank you for your response.

Cavediver writes:

I think most tyrants wouldn't be that stupid

In response to my Question: “How many tyrants do you know that would allow Their own Son (a willing participant) to be sacrificed in your place to pay the penalty for your misconduct?

I agree, as a matter of fact I really doubt any tyrant would do such a thing. So, apparently, the God of the Bible is not the tyrant some make Him out to be.

Cavediver writes:

Do you think that a grown adult should subject themselves to their parents' notions of right and wrong?

If their parents are correct about what ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are; of course; however, we’re not talking about a child growing up and making decisions based on his own experience and understanding. We are talking about whether the creation has authority over the Creator on deciding what ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.

Hence, the pot (Created thing) not having rights over what the Potter (the Creator) chooses to do with it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 08-27-2009 4:31 AM cavediver has not yet responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 260 of 381 (521940)
08-30-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by NosyNed
08-27-2009 10:16 AM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear NosyNed,

Thank you for your response.

NosyNed writes:

You're the one who described him as a tyrant. "My way or the highway" kind of thing. His rules only you suggest, I think. You (the creation) are setting standards for God (the Creator)??

I did not describe God as a tyrant, I was responding to someone who was calling the God of the Bible a tyrant.

As far as my making up the standards; If the standard, written in the Bible, are just concoctions of men then why are they universally understood? {I.E. Why does everyone know, (subconsciously if not consciously) that it is wrong to kill someone just for fun? There are those who do it anyway but they still know it is wrong.}

NosyNed writes:

If you want to have the brain power and moral strength of a clay pot good for you. I choose to be more responsible.

Is this the best argument you have? For those of you whom did not get my comparison; I’ll spell it out to you.

The Creator of the universes is as far above mankind as mankind is above a clay pot. (Probably further above us then we are above the clay pot)

I.E. the Creator of the universes owns (Has full, undisputable, authority over) everything in the universes. It is His grace and Love, for us, that compels Him to give us Freewill to decide where we will spend the rest of eternity; Heaven with Him or Hell without Him.

It is good, however, that you are willing to be responsible for your decisions and actions. There are many who try to escape blame for their misdeeds by blaming others. When we stand before the Creator of the universes to give an accounting of our deeds, blaming someone else will not cut the mustered (as they say).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by NosyNed, posted 08-27-2009 10:16 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-30-2009 6:15 PM JRTjr has responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 261 of 381 (521946)
08-30-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by greyseal
08-27-2009 4:33 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Greyseal,

Thank you for your response.

Greyseal writes:

Christianity is quite aptly summed up by explaining it as:

Fuunnny. Lol ;-}

You did however get a few of the points wrong :-{

Greyseal writes:

Jewish Zombie who was his own father

First you’re placing the Creator under the restraints of the creation. I.E. Jesus is God, He and the Father are One, but Jesus is not Jesus’ Father. The Trinity is impossible if you try to limit the Trinity to this four dimensional universe. God exists and operated beyond of our universe (I.E. more and other dimensions)

If you accept more dimensions then it is possible to have ‘One God’ ‘Three distinct Parsonages’.

Greyseal writes:

…father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master…

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him should not perish (come to destruction, be lost), but have eternal (everlasting) life.

For God did not sent the Son in to the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, But that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.John 3:16, 17 (Amplified Bible)

The only thing necessary to receive forgiveness for ones wrong doing is to “believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on)” Jesus as your savior.

Greyseal writes:

so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

The “evil force” in your soul is there because of your rebellion against God; not because of a “rib-woman” being deceived by a “talking snake to eat from a magical tree.”; Although mankind’s rebellion did start there.

Greyseal writes:

so he could absolve the sins of the evil that he himself caused is a cakewalk.

To stifle one’s own pride, and humble one’s self before the Creator of the universes is no “cakewalk”. It is literally the hardest thing anyone will ever do.

It is humbling one’s self before God and accepting that there is no ritual, no journey you can take, and no action what so ever, that you can take, that can absolve you from your gilt before a Holy God.

Only by accepting the fact that Jesus took on your sin (your gilt) by dieing on the cross do you escape the punishment for your own rebellion against His righteous decrees.

God did not cause rebellion (evil). I say with Peter that: “The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what he promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. II Peter 3: 9 (Amplified Bible)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by greyseal, posted 08-27-2009 4:33 PM greyseal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by purpledawn, posted 08-31-2009 4:31 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 263 of 381 (521952)
08-30-2009 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Perdition
08-27-2009 12:05 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Perdition,

Thank you for your response.

Perdition writes:

When Jesus died, where did he ultimately end up? Right next to his Father for eternity? Oh. Quite a sacrifice that, huh?

It was sufficient to wash away your sin?! Also note here that it was sufficient enough a sacrifice to wash away the sin of all mankind.

Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives; [All] are justified and made in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (his unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus. Romans 3: 23, 24 (Amplified Bible)

Also, I would not exactly say that death on a Roman cross is an easy why to die. Not only that, but if you get into the nitty-gritty of what Jesus went through you’ll find out that it is far more complicated then it looks on the surface.

When Jesus died on the cross, for the first (and only) time in eternity Jesus was ‘separated’ form the rest of the Godhead; like having your arm ripped from your body.

If someone sacrificed there arm to save you, would you mock them if they got it back? Would the sacrifice be any less legitimate? God did not just sacrifice an arm, he sacrificed a third of his whole being for you.

Perdition writes:

we have to assume that God didn't want Jesus near him.

I do not understand why you would assume that.

The Godhead planned this action out; as One. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit chose to have God the Son (Jesus) come to earth, become a man, live (as a man), teach mankind how to live and then become the sacrifice that His (the Godhead’s) righteousness required for payment of our sin For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6: 23 (Amplified Bible)

One little side note I would like to point out here, if I may.

Death, in the Bible, does not mean to “go out of existence” it means to be “separated from”.

All spirit beings will exist for all of eternity; either in ‘Life’ with God or in ‘Death’ without (separated from) God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 12:05 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by caldron68, posted 08-30-2009 8:13 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply
 Message 273 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 2:07 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 265 of 381 (521960)
08-30-2009 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by greyseal
08-27-2009 5:09 AM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Greyseal,

Thank you for your response.

Greyseal writes:

Just because you say god IS our creator, doesn't mean we OUGHT to do as he says.

I agree one hundred percent. Just because I say it don’t make it true. Let me put it this way though: We ought to do what God requires of us if He indeed is God.

If the God of the Bible is real then it would behoove use to pay attention to what the Bible has to say about God, our situation, etc. Conversely, if God is not real then what the Bible has to say is irrelevant.

Greyseal writes:

You may retort "honour thy mother and father", but we know our parents exist...

As an adult, I do not have to ‘do everything my parents want me to do’ to “honor” them. As an adult, I do “honor” my parents; however, I still live my own life.

Greyseal writes:

I was saying he was either non-existent or wasn't what you thought he was.

And I am saying that the evidence suggests that He is not “what you thought he was.” So, either; He is not what I thought He was, He is not what you thought He was, or He does not exist?!

Greyseal writes:

If the bible is the word of man, and god can disapprove of rape but not manage to stop it (presuming he exists), he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and therefore not much of a god. If you can't trust your priests to tell you what your god would allow or disallow, you either have bad priests or a useless god.

So what you’re saying is that you would prefer God to just zap each of us each time we get out of line. You apparently think that not giving anyone a chance to repent is preferable to allowing mankind room for repentance?

Do not be deceived and deluded and misled; God will not allow himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdaind, or mocked by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside). [he inevitably deludes himself who attempts to delude God.] For whatever a man sows, that and that only is what he will reap. Galations 6: 7 (Amplified Bible)

In other words, just because God did not stop someone from sinning does not mean they got away with it. Some may seem to ‘get a way with’ many unspeakable injustices, but, there will be a day of reckoning when everyone will give an accounting for their deeds both good and bad.

If God wanted robots He would have created machines; He wanted beings that had the capacity to love. You cannot love someone if you do not have the choice to hate them.

" ...God shows and clearly proves His [Own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. " {Romans 5: 8 AB}

See Y'Shua (Jesus whom is the Christ) died in the place of every person ever conceived. (You may want to read John 3: 16 - 18)

The Bible says the Y'Shua is "... The Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13: 8b)

God did not make a perfect universe; and a perfect planet; so man could live in perfect harmony in a perfect paradise; just to find out that man messed up and ruined it all.

God knew we (mankind) would fall, He knew we would need a redeemer; He knew (in advance) that a large majority would, and will choose to not accept and love Him.

However, for those whom would, He set up this entire universe so we could learn to love Him, and so He could redeem us from the penalty of our rebellion against His authority.

The spirit (the supernatural, ethereal part) of man will exist forever. It would be cruel of God to force those who choose not to serve Him to go to heaven and be subservient to Him.

So, God has prepared a place for those who do not want Him controlling their lives.

Besides, you original statement was

when your god says it is okay to commit mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, pillage and rape, that is bloodthirsty and it is abhorrent.

And I stated that God never commanded rap. Not to mention that they broke at least three of the Ten Commandments in Judges 21.

Greyseal writes:

inconsistencies and mistakes in the bible? There are hundreds. Thousands.

You keep say that, but I asked you for one or two, and I got a bunch of words that mean noting. Give me just one example of where the bible itself contradicts what it, itself, says to be true.

(I.E. This verse here contradicts what this verse over here says.)

Greyseal writes:

The biggest inconsistency of all is how many people get the same set of books to prove wildly different things depending on what they want it to say.

So let me get this strait. You’re saying that; if someone twists and/or lies about what something or someone else says that that (in and of itself) invalidates what was originally said?

In other words, if I tell you the sky is blue but ten other people twist or lie about what I said; then what I originally said is not true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by greyseal, posted 08-27-2009 5:09 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Theodoric, posted 08-30-2009 11:02 PM JRTjr has responded
 Message 268 by Bailey, posted 08-31-2009 12:22 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 270 by greyseal, posted 08-31-2009 1:02 AM JRTjr has responded

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 267 of 381 (521962)
08-30-2009 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Teapots&unicorns
08-30-2009 6:15 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Teapots&unicorns,

Thank you for your response.

Teapots&unicorns writes:

Might I ask exactly what your criteria for being "above" is? (For me, it's consciousness. In that respect, how is God- if he exists- any better than us?)

a⋅bove

–adverb
1. in, at, or to a higher place.
3. higher in rank, authority, or power: She was told to speak to the person above.

An example would be: I own a vase; I have the authority to do with it what I want within certain criteria. (I.E. Just because I own it, does not give me the right to break it over my brothers’ head) God, the Great Creator, has All Authority. In other words no one has the right (the authority) to tell Him He may not do whatever He chooses to do.

Teapots&unicorns writes:

Does this mean that God/Creator has authority over his simply because he is powerful?

No, His authority is not derived solely from His power. He is the Creator of everything that exists; in other word He is the owner of the universes, therefore He has authority over them. God’s authority, and power, out strips all others; therefore He has authority over us.

Teapots&unicorns writes:

I'm sorry. It just seems to me that this sentence is based on the idea that the existence (or love, etc.) is self- evident. Obviously it is not... unless the billions of non-Christians in the world are just consciously rejecting God.
Take your pick: Either everyone knows about God and are just knowingly in rebellion or those that don't believe just don't have any reason to (i.e. no free will). You can't have free will unless you know why you're doing something ((non)believing).


The Bible says that we are without excuse; “For ever since the creation of the world His [God’s] invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification]” Romans 1: 20 (Amplified Bible) so you are right that “billions of non-Christians in the world are just consciously rejecting God.

You can have ‘Freewill’ even if you do not know what you are doing. The problem is that, because of pride and self-wildness, people chose to not see what is plainly obvious. For evidence of this I present all of the views of; well of everything. Science shows that there are clear laws in nature but how many views of how those laws work are there? How many people deny those laws?

Remember; what people do or do not believe does not change what is real, factual, and correct.

Everyone one the planet could believe that the Earth is flat; that does not change the fact that it is a sphere.

If you have and other question, please, feel free to ask.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-30-2009 6:15 PM Teapots&unicorns has acknowledged this reply

    
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2502 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 269 of 381 (521964)
08-31-2009 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Theodoric
08-30-2009 11:02 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear Theodoric,

Thank you for your response.

Theodoric writes:

So you know what was originally meant? You are privy to the "TRUTH"? Why should we believe you and not someone else?

Thank you, this is an excellent question.

In a word ‘Don’t’ (O.K. I know that’s a contraction not a single word)

There indeed are many opinions out there, but science deals in what is factual, testable, actual versus blindly believed.

The Bible says: “…test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast. ” I Thessalonians 5: 21 (Amplified Bible)

This is one of the things that sets the Bible apart from the worlds religions. We are all told, in the text, to test everything; every doctrine, every spirit, ever opinion is to be tested in the same way that a scientist would test a hypostasis.

Also, every person is responsible for testing everything. If I assume that what some commentator says about a certain subject is true without testing what he says I will be held responsible for accepting something that was faults. (The commentator will be held responsible for telling the lie; and I will be held responsible for believing it; because I am told to test everything)

Faith and belief, in the case of the Bible are not blind. God wants us to believe what we have seen and have faith in the results of what has been tested. I.E. God is not asking you to close your eyes to the facts around you. He is asking you to take those fact to there logical conclusions and walk accordingly.

If you are willing to humble yourself; you can plainly see that this universe is designed; God simply wants you to acknowledge that. It is plain to see so trust (have faith) that it is so.

Unfortunately this is where pride comes in. We don’t want to have some god looking over our shoulder, telling us what to do, so we just image that He’s not there.

After all; the eases person to fool is yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Theodoric, posted 08-30-2009 11:02 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
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