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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 381 (174099)
01-05-2005 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tal
01-05-2005 3:47 AM


Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Hi T

For instance, He can't lie.

There are many examples of God lying, one is in Genesis 2:17.

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die

Another one is in Deuteronomy 13:1-3

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

There are more example of God telling lies, but one example should be enough to demonstrate that God can tell lies.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tal, posted 01-05-2005 3:47 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tal, posted 01-06-2005 4:43 AM Brian has responded
 Message 30 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 2:45 AM Brian has responded
 Message 65 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-11-2005 12:16 PM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 381 (174481)
01-06-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tal
01-06-2005 4:43 AM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Hi Tal,

They surely died.

Everyone surely dies.

But, they did not die the day that they ate the fruit, Adam lived for 930 years, so he hardly died the day he ate the fruit.

Need some clarification on this one.

Okay, the two criteria for the Israelites to recognise a true prophet of God were that the prophecy had to come to pass and that the prophet should be speaking in Yahweh’s name.

Deut. 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

If the prophecy came to pass and the prophet was speaking in the name of another god, say Chemosh for example, then the Israelites were not to follow that prophet.

If the prophet claimed to speak in Yahweh’s name but the prophecy did not come to pass, then the Israelites were to reject that prophet.

Now, to ensure that the Israelites were following the two criteria for recognising true prophets, God was going to send a prophet now and then to deliberately test Israel.

Therefore, one of two things must have happened. The prophet’s proclamation came true and the prophet said it was from a god other than Yahweh, or he said it was from Yahweh and it didn’t come to pass. Either one requires that God lies to the Israel, if He didn’t then there would be no test.

Remember, a prophet is so called because he/she speaks God’s words, God puts words in their mouth. Whether the prophet is in on the ruse is not known, which really wouldn’t make much difference anyway.

But having an omnipotent God requires that He is able to lie, if he cannot lie then he is not omnipotent.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tal, posted 01-06-2005 4:43 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Guido Arbia, posted 01-06-2005 4:09 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Tal, posted 01-08-2005 1:45 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 381 (174996)
01-08-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tal
01-08-2005 1:45 AM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Hi Tal,

Genesis 2:17:

Where did God say you will die the day you eat the fruit?

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God didnt say that you would die hundreds of years later. There is no mention of a spiritual death. God lied.

Before eating the fruit, there was no death. After eating the fruit, there was death.

Another example of your lack of Old Testament knowledge. No problem, of course, I take it you are a relatively new convert to Christianity and there is a lot to learn.

This claim that nothing died before the Fall is entirely unbiblical.

Look at Genesis 1:29-30

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

So, you can see that all that Adam and Eve had to eat was really just a vegetarian diet, I mean they had to eat something in order to survive didn't they?

Also, all the animals similarly ate plants and herbs (1:30)

So, as plants are alive, this idea that nothing died before the Fall is simply untrue.

Those are called false prophets, and they are/were much more common than real prophets.

Yes, a false prophet sent by God to test Israel.

You do understand that the prophet himself/herself may not have known that Yahweh was behind the test.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tal, posted 01-08-2005 1:45 AM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-08-2005 11:07 AM Brian has responded
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 Message 218 by h1a8, posted 01-21-2009 7:18 PM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 381 (175092)
01-08-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Guido Arbia
01-08-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Hang In There
Hi,

There was death and decay even in the time of adam and eve with the stars and things.

I know there was death before the Fall, that's why I pointed it out to Tal.

But adam and eve were going to live forever until they sinned.

Biblical support for this?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Guido Arbia, posted 01-08-2005 4:31 PM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 33 of 381 (175161)
01-09-2005 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by truthlover
01-09-2005 2:45 AM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
HI TL, nice to see you again.

Despite your objections to it, most (or all?) Christians, and in this case myself included, believe that Adam most certainly did die in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The death, however, was spiritual, not physical.

This is the usual reply from a Christian perspective, but where does the text imply this?

And I don't see how Deut 13:1-3 involves lying.

So, being honest about telling a lie is honest, surely there is still a lie involved?

I nearly had a short circuit in my brain thinking about this LOL:

God HAS to lie or He is a liar, since He said He would lie to Israel He has to lie or He would have been a liar by saying that He was going to lie and then not lying. :eek:

I have no problems myself with God telling lies, many lies are told for a higher purpose.

But I don't agree with your conclusion because we don't know if the prophet is in on the test or not. God may have told him/her a lie in order to carry out a genuine test, but what are the chances of the prophet knowing that God was lying in order to test Israel?

If the prophet was in on the test, then I doubt that he would go to the Israelites and deliver a false prophecy as we all know what the punishment for that would be.

Brian.

This message has been edited by Brian, 01-09-2005 06:33 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 2:45 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 5:34 PM Brian has responded
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 36 of 381 (175238)
01-09-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
01-08-2005 11:07 AM


Literal part timers
I think that they read the Bible, but they do not think about the words for themselves. They appear to accept what they have been told references mean rather than deciding for themselves.

I also think that many literalists have not read the entire Bible, which is not that difficult a task to do.

Even reading just one book a day, or two or three of the shorter books, it would only take a couple of months.

But, I think it is more common for a literalist to have only read parts of the Bible as they take so many quotes way out of context.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-08-2005 11:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 01-09-2005 2:15 PM Brian has not yet responded
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 64 of 381 (175844)
01-11-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by truthlover
01-09-2005 5:34 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Yeah, but we're reading this a lot different. Maybe it's unusual for me to read it the way I do. I'm not sure.

I am maybe not explaining what I think well enough.

I would agree with you if Deut 13 involved prophecy.

Deut 13 is one of the verses that presents the criteria for identifying true and false prophets.

Deut 13 does not involve prophecy. The "dreamer of dreams" in that passage may give a prophecy, but if so, it comes to pass. No lie there. The person then encourages the Israelites to worship other gods. Bad advice, but no lies involved.

I think this is may be the crucial part of our misunderstanding.

The other gods that Israel are being asked to worship are not in contact with the prophet, it is Yahweh pretending to be another god that has contacted the prophet who passed on the prophecy to see if Israel would follow another god. This was the test.

I agree with holding God responsible for whatever this person says who was sent by him to test Israel, but this person is not lying, as far as I can see. Am I missing something that seems obvious to you?

This person is saying that the prophecy comes from, say Chemosh, when it is fact comes from Yahweh, that is a lie. However, Yahweh has to tell a lie in order for Him to be telling the truth, that He would test Israel. But, imagine you are the prophet, and not aware that this prophecy is a test, hasn’t God lied to that prophet by telling him/her a false name? The prophet is passing on the prophecy in good faith, yet it is a false prophecy because it he/she has said it is from another god. That prophet would be killed for prophesising in the name of another god and attempting to lead Israel away from Yahweh.

The Israelites must have believed that Yahweh could tell a lie or there would be no way He could test them. If it was impossible for Him to lie then He could not give the prophet a false name, or a false prophecy, even if He had already said He would do this.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 5:34 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 381 (175861)
01-11-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by PecosGeorge
01-11-2005 12:16 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

God tells lies to test Israel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-11-2005 12:16 PM PecosGeorge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-11-2005 12:46 PM Brian has responded
 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 02-05-2005 2:39 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 69 of 381 (175880)
01-11-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by PecosGeorge
01-11-2005 12:46 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
I do not have a problem with God telling a lie. Many lies are told for a higher purpose.

For example, there is a Buddhist tale of a father who tells his children that there is a man outside selling cakes and they can have some if they hurry up. They got outside and there was no cake seller there, however, the house was on fire and the father thought this was the best way to get them out of the house.

He lied, but it was for a good reason.

Of course, the Yahweh 'lie' was really Israel's intelligentsia providing criteria that would protect the people from outside influence.

Cheers.

Brian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-11-2005 12:46 PM PecosGeorge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 81 of 381 (183225)
02-05-2005 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
02-05-2005 2:43 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
But God is saying to the people "in order for me to test you, I need to send a prophet to tell you a lie".

If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.

Yes, it is true that God said he would lie, but it is still a lie.

Also, I think that God would have to lie to the prophet who is passing on the 'test'. It is hard to imagine that the prophet would go willingly to tell a false prophecy knowing what the punishment would be.

but that you should follow other gods, even if there are signs that they might be real or true.

Have you left a 'not' out here?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by arachnophilia, posted 02-05-2005 2:43 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by arachnophilia, posted 02-05-2005 4:33 PM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 83 of 381 (183415)
02-06-2005 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by arachnophilia
02-05-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Hi Arach,

no no the prophet tells the truth, but suggests something against god's wishes. neither is telling a lie, but one is asking the Israelites to do something wrong.

Okay, the two criteria for identifying a true prophet is that the prophecy must come to pass and that the prophet claims that he/she speaks in the name of Yahweh. Therefore, the prophecy could come true but if the prophet says that it came from Chemosh, then the prophet was to be killed. If the prophet says that the prophecy is from Yahweh and it doesn’t come to pass, then the prophet dies again.
So, if the prophet converses with Yahweh, and Yahweh tells him a false prophecy in order to test Israel, then God has lied to the prophet. Unless Yahweh has told the prophet that this is going to be a test for Israel. This is difficult to imagine because we know how Israel deals with false prophets.

If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.

the essential meaning of the verse is that sometimes the prophesies and sayings of other religions are true, but that you should not go chasing them just because they sound like they know what they're talking about.

Yes, it a case of self preservation. It also illustrates the worthlessness of prophecy as it appears that many prophets from many gods were passing on good prophecies.

What a great way of dismissing other gods.

it's decietful, yes. but there is no lie here.

But there is a lie. In order for it to be true then there has to be a lie in there. Either the prophecy is untrue or the prophet is not speaking in Yahweh’s name.

no, again. the requirement is that prophesy is NOT false.

Nope, the prophecy spoken in Yahweh’s name CAN be false.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

How do we know that the LORD isn’t testing Israel here?

I understand completely what you are saying, but I just find it difficult to agree with. Perhaps I am not explaining it as well in text as I am in my head! LOL

Cheers.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by arachnophilia, posted 02-05-2005 4:33 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 101 of 381 (186575)
02-18-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
double post

This message has been edited by Brian, 02-18-2005 14:27 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by xevolutionist, posted 02-18-2005 11:30 AM xevolutionist has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 102 of 381 (186576)
02-18-2005 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by xevolutionist
02-18-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Elsewhere in the Bible satan is known as the deceiver and the adversary.

And Satan cannot act without God first giving him the okay to do so.

Is that because he was so truthful?

Well the serpent certainly exposed a deceiver in the second Genesis creation myth and we all know who that was.

Romans, chapters, 5 and 6 specifically address spiritual death. The exact term, "spiritual death" may not be used, but the concept is there.

This is in the New Testament, which has nothing to do with the Tanakh.

The spiritual death apologetic is simply an invention to explain away God's blatant lie.

It is a bit like the 'generation' apologetic that tries to explain away Jesus' failure to return within a generation of his death, a feat he obvioulsy failed to perform.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by xevolutionist, posted 02-18-2005 11:30 AM xevolutionist has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 219 of 381 (495367)
01-22-2009 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by h1a8
01-21-2009 7:18 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
If God intended "die that very day" then it would have been written
"for in the day that thou eastest thereof is the day that thou will surely die".

We have someone who knows what God is thinking, what a wonderful gift.

I am afraid that your interpretation really does not make any sense.

Adam was going to die some day anyway, so to use your interpretation means that God's threat was pointless.

Think about it. Someone says to you, "the day that you eat my cake you will surely die", you say " I'm going to die anyway, what would be the point of the threat if it wasn't meant to shorten your life?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by h1a8, posted 01-21-2009 7:18 PM h1a8 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by h1a8, posted 01-26-2009 5:13 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3244 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 221 of 381 (496127)
01-26-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by h1a8
01-26-2009 5:13 AM


Bible seldoms says what you would like it to
Prove that Adam was going to die anyway.

Adam was mortal, he was dying from the moment he was created.

The bible points out that man can live forever if he continues to eat of the tree of life (hence the name 'tree of life').

No it does not say that.

What it actually says in Genesis 3:22 is:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

So ‘take also’ obviously means that Adam has not eaten from the Tree of Life yet, if he did he would be like God, an eternal being. You only need to eat the from the Tree of Life once to become like God.

Ain’t it annoying when the Bible doesn’t say what you would like it to?

That is why God kicked man out of the garden and had an angel guard the entrance.

Of course, He had to protect the Tree of Life. If anyone eats from it they become eternal, just like God. You don’t have to keep eating from it.

God's intentions was either that man would die that very day or a day in the future.

I’m afraid not. God lied, the Serpent told the truth. Adam did not die that day.

It is easy to prove as well. Look at what the Serpent says about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis 3:5:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So, the Serpent uses the same terminology, ‘in the day’, so when did Eve’s eyes become open?

Genesis 3:6-7

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Their eyes immediately were opened, the very day that they ate the fruit. God said they would die that day and they didn’t. God lied, no big deal.

Since God didn't actually say that Adam was to die the very day he ate of the tree then it can't be proven that God lied.

Well I just proved it.

But, to be serious for a moment, we really need to look at the Bible in context. The Adam and Eve myth doesn’t mean that anybody lied, Israelite philosophers were the same as any other nations’ philosophers, they came up with stories to explain the world around them. Suffering and evil was obviously a big concern in the ancient world, thus the Israelite philosophers came up with this tale, heavily borrowed from Mesopotamian mythology, to explain why the world could be such a shitty place.

God didn’t lie, Satan didn’t lie, the creators of this myth MAY have lied, but since God and Satan are literary inventions we cannot say they lied.

What we could say is that the mythological character Yahweh lied in the Book of Genesis.

Isn’t ancient mythology amazing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by h1a8, posted 01-26-2009 5:13 AM h1a8 has responded

Replies to this message:
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