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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1690 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 381 (175310)
01-09-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
01-09-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Literal part timers
quote:
So who has the revelation of God about Scripture. According to Jesus, the person who has fruit...who produces results.
Are you speaking of the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galations?

Galations 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness , faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

quote:
Instead, you judge prophets by their results.
Can you give an example of how to use a prophets results to judge what they have written?


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 5:57 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by truthlover, posted 01-10-2005 5:32 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 381 (175313)
01-09-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by truthlover
01-09-2005 5:51 PM


Re: Literal part timers
I'm thinking I remember you saying that you are a Christian, though a non-literalist. Knowing that Paul is very prone to quoting a single line out of context, I'm curious how you view Paul or the Bible.

I'm not asking you to give a general dissertation on the subject. I'm asking specifically about the literalist issue and taking quotes out of context.

Great question. Thanks. And it goes back to an area of great interest to me. I was sent off to a small Episcopal Boys Boarding School around the start of middle school IIRC. It was called St. Paul's, so as you might expect, we spent a fair amount of time examining the Pauline writings.

Remember that the Pauline texts were not written to the general audience. They were specific correspondence between a teacher/priest and his contemporaries. As such, and as we all do when talking between friends, he often took shortcuts and made assuptions based on prior discussion with the folk. He spoke in an idiomatic manner and often used a minor reference to jog their memories about a more extensive discussion that they had in the past.

We tend to forget that the Pauline texts were letters writen to specific churches. They may well be applicable beyond the original context but only when we also remember just what that context was. Paul was not writing to a general audience.

We also tend to take Paul himself out of context. At the time Paul was active he was completely convinced that the end-times were at hand and that drove much of his moral behavior system. His apparent opposition to marriage and family may well have been determined by the fact that he thought there was insufficient time left to even raise a child.

Paul was also busy building a franchise. He was changing the very nature of Christianity and bringing it in line with the Hellenistic audience he was preaching to. And because that very audience went on to become the State Religion of the Roman Empire, we have more of Paul's writings than we do of Thomas, or Mary, or Simon the Zealot, or James, or Philip, or Matthias, or James the Lessor or Thaddaeus, or Bartholomew, or Andrew or the 50 new Apostles.

I count Paul and those in his churches as my spiritual forefathers, and it was a doctrine of theirs (this gleaned from reading the church fathers) that the inspiration of the Scriptures meant that it was quite okay to pull sentences out of context, because God dropped them in there as prophecy.

There are many that would agree with you. My question would be if the very next line contradicts or modifies the quoted one, why was it not also dropped in there as prophecy?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2005 5:51 PM truthlover has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 48 of 381 (175364)
01-10-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by sidelined
01-09-2005 6:41 PM


Re: Literal part timers
sidelined writes:

The question is not one of arrogance but of wherther you have an understanding of the full spectrum of ways in which you may decieve yourself.

OK..lets cut to the chase. Critics have said that it is an error to use the Bible to prove itself. My response is that for a literalist, Jesus is a living reality. He is as alive as you are. Knowing the character of Jesus...through impartation of the Spirit and through corroboration with His words, how am I deceiving myself by accepting Him? Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-09-2005 23:15 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by sidelined, posted 01-09-2005 6:41 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by berberry, posted 01-10-2005 1:45 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 2:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 381 (175368)
01-10-2005 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 1:14 AM


Re: Literal part timers
I think the problem is this part right here, Phatboy:

quote:
...through impartation of the Spirit and through corroboration with His words...

You can find some sort of justification for just about any crime you might ever conceive of if you only claim that the "holy spirit" told you to do it. Finding a bible verse to back you up shouldn't be too difficult even if you've never opened the "good book" before. It'll be in there somewhere.

I can't remember for certain which of Shakespeare's characters it was who said "the devil can cite scripture to his purpose", but I think all Christians should heed the comment because it's quite true.

This is what I see as the essential difference in liberal and conservative Christianity. One group desperately needs the literal words of the bible in order to justify its faith while the other does not.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 1:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 1:56 AM berberry has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 50 of 381 (175369)
01-10-2005 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by berberry
01-10-2005 1:45 AM


Re: Literal part timers
This is what I see as the essential difference in liberal and conservative Christianity. One group desperately needs the literal words of the bible in order to justify its faith while the other does not.
OK..but even if we don't need the words, we DO need the Spirit. The problem is how to convince you that the Spirit is not our own human wisdom.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by berberry, posted 01-10-2005 1:45 AM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by berberry, posted 01-10-2005 2:04 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 381 (175371)
01-10-2005 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 1:56 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Phatboy writes me:

quote:
The problem is how to convince you that the Spirit is not our own human wisdom.

Or delusion. That's the problem with your logic.

I'm not trying to say that you've deluded yourself into thinking that the Holy Spirit moves you. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't; that's between you and God. What I'm trying to do is point out that your logic of "Holy Spirit + Word of God = Good and Trustworthy" is flawed.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 1:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 6:30 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 381 (175385)
01-10-2005 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 1:14 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Phatboy

My response is that for a literalist, Jesus is a living reality. He is as alive as you are.

I was not aware you were a literalist.Now this is a good example for showing the problem of expressing your view.Here you state that Jesus is as alive as I am. Now I return with the rebuttal that I am at present communicating with you over the internet.I am confident that,barring trickery on your part,or delusion on my own,given your phone number I could call you up and have a pleasant converstaion.

I interact with people everyday on a physical level and have no trouble convincing someone that I exist. I need not ask them to have faith that I am there with them skiing or having dinner at their home.There is no need for belief prior to them seeing me or experiencing my presence in their lives.

I can cut my arm and watch blood flow from the wound and have no lapse in faith that the pain is actual.The same cannot be said for Jesus as far as I can see.Is there some definition you need to clarify here?

Knowing the character of Jesus...through impartation of the Spirit and through corroboration with His words, how am I deceiving myself by accepting Him? Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

But if you had been raised in a country where no bible exists such would certainly not be the case.The deception occurs when you say that Jesus is as real as I am when,say,were we to be neighbours,I am quite sure you would not have to accept me to know that I exist.

Let me ask you? What is the character of Jesus? Without the bible could you have known of his existence? If so how? Indeed,without the bible,could you define the character of Jesus? Yes?By what means? No?
Then it is only real in the sense of a character in a book and not an objective reality.

Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

I cannot answer that for you.Perhaps it emotionally satisfying. Perhaps it fillls a void caused by the normal process of living.Perhaps it fills a social need.Fall into it, embrace it.It is your life to do with as you please.

I only say that it is not a reality because it is not universally applicable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 1:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 6:21 AM sidelined has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 53 of 381 (175412)
01-10-2005 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
01-10-2005 2:40 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Sidelined, if you were to trust this source, it may provide SOME evidence that even people without much access to the Bible CAN become converts. The source is from the radio show...now syndicated...of an old American Preacher, Dr. J. Vernon McGee.(Now deceased) You can listen to him at this website:http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp His credentials were genuine---he was a theologian. He knew his Bible and he was a literalist.
Taken from the website:

LETTERS FROM LISTENERS
Letters from South Asia
India:
Kannada: We are from another faith and very strong in our traditions and rituals. At one time, my three children and husband became very sick. We began to visit temples, but it was no use. We lost our children. We were unable to bear the death of our children and had decided to take our lives. The next morning as we were tuning our radio, your program was on the air. We listened with much interest as God spoke to us, and we began to listen regularly since then. We stopped worshiping idols, and accepted Jesus as our Savior and took water baptism. We thank you so much for your program, which led us to salvation and to the living God.
Urdu: By listening to this program, I came to know about the Lord Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as my personal Savior. Through my testimony and the sharing of the Word of God, some of my friends have also accepted Him. I want to thank you for your beautiful program through which you saved my life.
Assamese: I am able to know many unknown things about Jesus Christ by listening to your program. I have never before heard any teachings from the Bible, so it is new to me. I have learned that Jesus is not the founder of the Christian religion, but He is the Savior of mankind.
English (Indian): I am a Roman Catholic priest. At present, I am working in a seminary in the state of Kerala. It is my privilege to hear an inspiring program like Thru the Bible. The teaching on the Word of God from the Bible in such a clear manner is very encouraging to me. It helps me understand the Bible better.
Deccani: I listened to your program for the first time recently, and felt good the whole day. It is like an angel coming to me and telling me good things from God. I want to know more about God, so please send me a Bible. Please tell me about God in detail.
Kok Borok: I love to listen to your program, which has enriched my spiritual life. I had a great zeal to know more about the Word of God and now I have found your program as a wonderful instrument to gain spiritual knowledge. I also have a desire to propagate the gospel to the people in my village, as they are living in darkness, and there is rampant practice of witchcraft and other evil habits. Therefore, please uphold me in your prayers, and especially the people in my village. Also, kindly send me some literature that I can distribute to them.
Bangladesh:
Bengali (Muslimi): I am from another faith. I am so happy to hear the Word of God. I am deeply drawn to the love of Jesus Christ, and that is why I have created a radio listener's club, which now has 17 members. We all listen to the program together. Please send me some more booklets that I can distribute to my club members.
Nepal:
Nepali: I am a Buddhist. I came to know your program from a Christian friend who is a regular listener. Despite fear of opposition from my husband and villagers, I began to listen to the program. It was a blessing to me. I like to listen to the Word of God and want to know more about the love and salvation of Jesus. Please pray for me.

Of course, you may be skeptical of the claims being accurate. I am not. This is one of the better Christian ministeries out there.
sidelined writes:

I only say that it is not a reality because it is not universally applicable.

Spiritual acceptance of Jesus Christ...through the ministeries of others..IS universally applicable IF people so choose to accept it.(Him)
sidelined writes:

Perhaps it emotionally satisfying. Perhaps it fillls a void caused by the normal process of living.Perhaps it fills a social need.Fall into it, embrace it.It is your life to do with as you please.

And it is not everyone who accepts or embraces it. So it IS universally applicable yet not universally acceptable. That would be in line with scripture.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 04:24 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 2:40 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 10:08 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 54 of 381 (175413)
01-10-2005 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by berberry
01-10-2005 2:04 AM


Re: Literal part timers
berberry writes:

What I'm trying to do is point out that your logic of "Holy Spirit + Word of God = Good and Trustworthy" is flawed.

OK, berberry. I accept your challenge but you have to do it my way. Here is a good American preacher. Pick ANY of his sermons and show me ANY flaws in his logic. Take your time...
http://www.intouch.org/intouch/site.show_page?p_id=77395

By the way, the mans name is Charles Stanley. read about him on his website.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 04:31 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by berberry, posted 01-10-2005 2:04 AM berberry has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by truthlover, posted 01-10-2005 5:16 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 381 (175452)
01-10-2005 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 6:21 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Phatboy

Sidelined, if you were to trust this source, it may provide SOME evidence that even people without much access to the Bible CAN become converts.

This supports my arguement that it is necessary fo have exposure to the bible before the belief comes to bear.A real living entity as you describe would have no need of such.

Kannada: We are from another faith and very strong in our traditions and rituals. At one time, my three children and husband became very sick. We began to visit temples, but it was no use. We lost our children. We were unable to bear the death of our children and had decided to take our lives. The next morning as we were tuning our radio, your program was on the air. We listened with much interest as God spoke to us, and we began to listen regularly since then. We stopped worshiping idols, and accepted Jesus as our Savior and took water baptism. We thank you so much for your program, which led us to salvation and to the living God.

Desperate people in suicidals of the highest level are going to grasp at any relief from their pain. This does not make the experience real big guy.They were already prone to acceptace of such as evidenced by a prior belief system.

I am able to know many unknown things about Jesus Christ by listening to your program. I have never before heard any teachings from the Bible, so it is new to me. I have learned that Jesus is not the founder of the Christian religion, but He is the Savior of mankind.

Perhaps we should track them down and see what they have learned to see if there are gaps in their knowledge as is often shown to be the case on this forum.

Of course, you may be skeptical of the claims being accurate.

The claims I have no doubt of. That they descibe actualities I am not.I simply no longer accept things at face value.The diificulty lays not in convincing me of claims it is in convincing me that the claims are free from bias and self referential sublties of human error.The worst possible kind of support for a position is testimonial.Why should I believe the testimony of thousands if those thousands are most likely wrong? Millions of people barking up a wrong tree constitute an enormous voice but it is no more than noise.

Spiritual acceptance of Jesus Christ...through the ministeries of others..IS universally applicable IF people so choose to accept it.(Him)

Yes, but only if you accept that these people who introduce you are not decieved.I have not met a cogent arguement in the field of belief that does not first require giving up on critical thinking, which amounts to the same as no thinking at all.
It is by your own admission only possible if choice to accept is met.This is in direct contradiction to your claim of a living breathing Christ as real as you or I since,as I clearly stated,such a Christ would not be disputed.

You find yourself frustrated that you are not somehow connecting to me with what this is you are trying to get across but you are wrong.I fully understand the issue. I have been introiduced to all this by numerous people.I have heard the "gift" christianity dangles as its carrot.I rejected that long ago on grounds that such not only could not be the case in reality but even in the context of devils advocate the means by which the gift is given {Christ and the cross} has made me choose otherwise.

I have mentioned before that the way I viewed the condition presented by Christ's death was that god is testing the character of those who hear this.Those who accept are the ones god will reject since they would allow an innocent{Christ} to suffer for their misdeeds.

It is not very convincing to me on all levels Phatboy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 6:21 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 12:56 PM sidelined has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 381 (175508)
01-10-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by sidelined
01-10-2005 10:08 AM


Re: Literal part timers
sidelined writes:

Perhaps we should track them down and see what they have learned to see if there are gaps in their knowledge as is often shown to be the case on this forum.

And what "knowledge" would you teach them. That death is final for living organisms so make the best of today? How does that help uplift a family who lost their children in a tsunami? Make more kids? Survival of the fittest? Quit moping and smell the roses, perhaps? Spirituality is comforting to some people and I have seen changes in attitudes. That is the bottem line even if it could be said that the comfort is incidental.
sidelined writes:

This supports my argument that it is necessary to have exposure to the bible before the belief comes to bear.A real living entity as you describe would have no need of such.

So you are saying that IF God were real, He surely would do it a different way?
The way that it is done is through relationship. Of course you know this, and I am not saying that you could not relate to a hurting family from your heart. What comfort would you give them?
sidelined writes:

The difficulty lies not in convincing me of claims-- it is in convincing me that the claims are free from bias and self referential sublties of human error.

So how would the people that you helped be any different? What is it that you would give them that would be better?

I think I sense your answer. You think that the greatest gift that a person can receive is the revelation that they can think for themselves, achieve for themselves, and thrive by their own initiative. Tell that speech to the Wal-Mart worker who toils 40 hours a week to barely support a family. Even better, the Chinese worker who labors to make those cheap goods with a weekly wage of $10.00. I may tell them that there is more to life than money. My spirituality may give them hope. What hope will you tell them? Perhaps that they can come to America, get an education, and teach their children about insects and asteroids? The mysteries of the great wonder of a godless universe?

sidelined writes:

I rejected that long ago on grounds that such not only could not be the case in reality but even in the context of devils advocate the means by which the gift is given {Christ and the cross} has made me choose otherwise.

And I would say that you rejected a manmade concept of religion. If you had actually met the Creator, you would not have taken Him so lightly. You would leave the ball in His court rather than walked away. You have not yet chosen. If you truly HAVE chosen, I will see you at the next dance.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 11:02 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 10:08 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 7:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 210 by Trae, posted 03-04-2005 9:03 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 57 of 381 (175582)
01-10-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 6:30 AM


Phatboy writes:

I accept your challenge but you have to do it my way. Here is a good American preacher. Pick ANY of his sermons and show me ANY flaws in his logic.

I think you're missing Berberry's point, Phatboy. The logic or lack of it in Charles Stanley's sermons has nothing to do with the logic Berberry is referencing. He is saying that just because you say you got something from the Word of God by the help of the Holy Spirit, that doesn't mean it's safe.

His point is obviously true, and you agree with the general point, which is that not everyone who defends their actions or viewpoints by the Bible, claiming to be guided by the Spirit of God, is trustworthy.

An example would be you and me. Both of us claim to be Biblical. Both of us claim to be following the Holy Spirit. Yet I would consider Charles Stanley to be espousing 2,000 years of deviation from the writings of the apostles, while you would use his sermons as an example of perfect Biblical logic. The specifics of that disagreement between you and I are not pertinent to this topic, but the fact that we could both honor Scripture and desire to follow the Holy Spirit yet disagree as much as we do proves Berberry's point.

And mine. Scripture interpreting Scripture is not enough. Millions of people do that, and the majority of them disagree on Scripture. Even trying to follow the Holy Spirit and Scripture is not enough, as you and I prove.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 6:30 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 58 of 381 (175596)
01-10-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by purpledawn
01-09-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Literal part timers
purpledawn writes:

Are you speaking of the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galations?

Not specifically. I don't think Y'shua's statement is to be taken that specifically. In general, I do think the result you want from religion is love, kindness, etc., but I think he meant "judge the results for yourself." Good results come from a good source, so if the prophet is producing good results, then he's a trustworthy prophet. ("Make the tree good if the fruit is good. A good tree does not produce bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit.")

Can you give an example of how to use a prophets results to judge what they have written?

Yes, but let's add "or said" to your question. I'm not speaking of the past, but of current teachers or prophets, so I'm including what they say, not just what they write.

Paul gave an example in his letter to the Corinthians, saying that he did not need letters of commendation to them or from them, because they were his letter. Was Paul a true or good prophet? His answer was to present the Corinthians for evaluation. Did the church/community of the Corinthians demonstrate a life that showed the influence of God the Creator?

Let's take Charles Stanley as an example, since he was mentioned by Phatboy. Is Charles Stanley a true prophet of God? The answer can be found in Atlanta, at the congregation he pastors. What can be seen there?

This does leave the possibility that different people will be looking for different "good fruit." I don't think that problem can be solved. Y'shua himself is not loved by everyone. In fact, he said that the world would hate him. They did not judge his fruit as good, and they put him to death.

On the other hand, I believe good fruit is a relatively universal concept. I am part of a community that has been going forward on the basis of looking for good fruit. We try to follow God and live by his Spirit, but if we do something that doesn't bring about love, unity, holiness, kindness, freedom, etc., then we assume we missed God, and we back up and change directions. The results have been extraordinary, in our opinion, and we very commonly hear visitors and acquaintances remark "That's the way things ought to be" or "That's how people ought to live."

In religious terminology, what they mean is, "That's good fruit."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 01-09-2005 6:57 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 01-10-2005 8:34 PM truthlover has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 381 (175613)
01-10-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Literal part timers
Phatboy

And what "knowledge" would you teach them. That death is final for living organisms so make the best of today? How does that help uplift a family who lost their children in a tsunami? Make more kids? Survival of the fittest? Quit moping and smell the roses, perhaps? Spirituality is comforting to some people and I have seen changes in attitudes. That is the bottem line even if it could be said that the comfort is incidental

Why do you suppose that I would teach evolution to people who have lost so devastatingly?I would do what I would need done for me. I would be there to help them through their despair.I would listen to them as they grieved.I would allow them to express the pain and be there for them when they needed help through despondency.

I would not offer them the hope that they will see their children again.I would not comfort them with empty promises and hollow words.I would help them to celebrate what marvelous memories their children left them and allow them to express the healing part of the grieving process.Acceptence and renewal of purpose. I would help them to focus on a means of turning the loss into a reason to go on.

So you are saying that IF God were real, He surely would do it a different way?

No. This really is simple. If god were real,god would not need a bible to inform people of such.

The way that it is done is through relationship. Of course you know this, and I am not saying that you could not relate to a hurting family from your heart. What comfort would you give them?

Absolutely!See? We have common ground after all.You comfort others simply through relationship.By being there, by losing sleep when the person hurt cannot bear the moment.By being human first and foremost and thereby showing them that grief is shared when you wish to share it.
Some of us though,like myself,deal with grief on our own.I find it easier to sort out things without the input of people who often feel uncomfortable dealing with death and the hard issues of life.

You think that the greatest gift that a person can receive is the revelation that they can think for themselves, achieve for themselves, and thrive by their own initiative. Tell that speech to the Wal-Mart worker who toils 40 hours a week to barely support a family. Even better, the Chinese worker who labors to make those cheap goods with a weekly wage of $10.00.

LOL! You are preaching to the choir.I work long hours for lousy pay and no benefits to play tag with the bill collectors.I cannot afford a car or the insurance even.I do not own a house. I work until the temperature hits -30 celsius and we quit only because the lifts we use tend to be dangerous in that temperature.In summer I tend a rubber membrane kettle with membrane at a temperature of 200 celsius and have done so in 35 celsius weather with no wind and 14 hour days.
Sucks to be here but my choices unfortunately led me to this point.I bitch and moan and have days where I would dearly love to be skiing powder in the rockies or scuba diving off Vancouver Island.
But I am a husband and a father and if I do not work what will happen to my family? So what if other have more than me, are more succesful,or happen to be ahead in material things.I only have to watch the laughter on my daughter's face and I am rewarded in ways I can never buy.Go figure I am a happy failure.
I have no hope.I am at this point in my life up against the wall.But here's the thing,I work best when the hammer is down and this is where I enjoy life most but I do not have any illusions that I can be certain of having things work out.
You cannot get out of the game,the best that you can do is play to the best of your ability.
And don't... forget... to dance!

I may tell them that there is more to life than money. My spirituality may give them hope. What hope will you tell them? Perhaps that they can come to America, get an education, and teach their children about insects and asteroids? The mysteries of the great wonder of a godless universe?

What makes you think that they do not realize there is more to life than money?
I would have them get an education most definitely.There is endless wonder in the world around us that is free for the observant,and for those who apply what they have learned a chance to unravel some of its mystery and majesty.
To investigate and immerse yourself in the world of nature and relationships until the end comes is high purpose and adventure.Why do you think it depressing and sorrowful that the world has no creator? There is no heaven or hell and no reason to fight for or against such silliness.Free to be capable of anything and choosing to help others.A fellow traveller in the journey of life sharing and growing.What more do you want?

And I would say that you rejected a manmade concept of religion.

No.The scenario is christ died for our sins. If we accept the gift of christ's sacrifice then we are forgiven our sins since he will bear the burden for us. This is the gift as I rejected it and as I explained in my previous Post. I did indeed walk away because I consider those "sins" my responsibilty and no one else's.

If you had actually met the Creator, you would not have taken Him so lightly. You would leave the ball in His court rather than walked away.

I do not think that would be the case though I am biased. I will not be forced to choose that which I find distasteful and which goes against my upbringing.

You have not yet chosen.

Let us not play the game of telling me what I have and have not done as you are not qualified to make that judgement.I left these issues of muddy thinking long ago and my life suits me fine.

I suppose it is agree to disagree time.Be well big guy.


A centipede was happy quite, until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised his doubts to such a pitch
He fell distracted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 12:56 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1690 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 381 (175636)
01-10-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by truthlover
01-10-2005 5:32 PM


Re: Literal part timers
quote:
Yes, but let's add "or said" to your question.
Unfortunately we can no longer hear the prophets themselves. I have no problem discerning the fruit of the spirit from a living person.

quote:
Was Paul a true or good prophet? His answer was to present the Corinthians for evaluation. Did the church/community of the Corinthians demonstrate a life that showed the influence of God the Creator?
I have no way of knowing how the Corinthians truly behaved.

quote:
Let's take Charles Stanley as an example, since he was mentioned by Phatboy. Is Charles Stanley a true prophet of God? The answer can be found in Atlanta, at the congregation he pastors. What can be seen there?
Since I am not part of that cogregation, what they do is of little use to me. They are too far away for me to truly know them. Any info I would receive would be written or over the television, two mediums that are easily manipulated.

I went on his cruise this summer to Alaska. It was an excellent cruise. I have read some of his books, listened to many of his sermons, and of course several of his talks on the ship. He seems to be a decent, generous man and good with people. He presents his religion very well, but do I think he is someone who speaks for God? No. I feel that some of his beliefs would make Jesus cringe.

quote:
This does leave the possibility that different people will be looking for different "good fruit."
Unfortunately, "good fruit" is relative. If my life demonstrates all the fuit of the spirit, but my interpretation of scripture is different than dogma and tradition, some would not consider me to be filled with the spirit.

You haven't given me a concrete method of interpretation without leaving me subject to the whims of men and religious dogma.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by truthlover, posted 01-10-2005 5:32 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by truthlover, posted 01-11-2005 12:35 AM purpledawn has responded

  
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