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Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
starman
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 365 (473545)
06-30-2008 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by PaulK
06-30-2008 2:05 AM


Curtain Call
quote:
Which are NOT said to be rulers of separate kingdoms. Indeed the best historical fit has them as the successive rulers of a single kingdom. This issue has been dealt with.
Historical evidence for kingdoms that exist just before God takes over can't exist. Focus, man. That is ridiculous.

quote:
In addition it is invalid to use Revelation to override what the Book of Daniel actually says. The Book of Daniel clearly places its events in time. The Revelation - written at least 250 years AFTER that time - places its events still further ahead.
Don't think of using the rest of the bible as trying to override your pet warped theories. Think of it as context, balance, and perspective, and a clarifying force.

You have no idea of the time of many of the events in Daniel obviously, and if a stone smote all the kingdoms already, and God took over, where is He? I must have missed that along with everyone else on the planet. (Except you and your sister, of course)

quote:
In other words you ignored the context while looking for a bad argument.
Well, actually, I decided that the spiritual context was too much for an atheist dominated board, and not really needed. No need to get fancy, and try to explain how the past blends with the future in bible prophesy mid stream!!

quote:
I have been promoting an integrated understanding using everything we can find. Chapter 8 is key, but chapters 9 and 11 provide strong support. In contrast you have to invnet massive jumps in time to cling to YOUR pet theories. I don't need anything like that.
Sit down, this may be a shock to you. When we start dealing in God taking over the planet, and events of the extreme end, we must jump somewhere, cause it never happened yet. That is what prophesy happens to be all about!! This is news? If it never jumped anywhere in the future it would not BE prophesy!!! Got you there.

quote:
The end time leader is RULER of a political entity. And presumably "focus" means that we should ignore the fact that your "context" is a fabrication that ignores the real context.
In english, now??? Who ignores what? And what about this leader of the time of the extreme end? Focus.

quote:
Everyone agrees that the "weeks" are periods of seven years and nobody has disputed that in the course of this thread. Characterising that as an "admission" is pure spin. And there are certainly possible start dates that place the end date quite far from your candidate for Daniel's second messiah.
Not that include a Messiah being killed in the ways the bible prophesied, and born where prophesied, and etc. Not that include Jerusalem, and the temple being utterly destroyed.

That really neuters any possible tweaking ability you have for playing with, and trying to confuse the dates!! It hits the target no matter how you try to shake the board.

quote:
The destruction is not a problem for me, because clearly the Temple is still working afterwards. Therefore it refers to damage that can be put right, at least to the extent of allowing Temple business to continue, within a short period. (That's using the context again.) We do have a successful raid of the Temple, with the treasures looted at exactly the right time. Thus the problem is answered - as you already knew.
Say what??? The temple that had not one stone left upon another was still working?? Maybe that is not as clear as you think! Tell us how that works?

quote:
Daniel 8 and Daniel 11-12 DO say exactly that. So you are calling the Bible ridiculous.
I call those interpretation attempts, so called, that try to stuff in destroyed temples, cut off Messiahs, and God ruling the earth, and etc. -as having happened in the time of Greece inept insults to what the bible actually is saying six ways from Sunday.

quote:
Of course we can. All we have to do is to choose a different breakdown which actually fits in with the clear statements of Daniel 8.
Babylon was the head, and another kingdom followed, on down the line. You can't play with the order, any more than you can have Greece take over the US!!

quote:
Well that is odd since it is a description of Antichus IV Epiphanes !

I see, so how was this bit fulfilled?!!!!!

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

When were those books opened, and all judged, and the end time leader (beast) slain, etc!?? Get serious.

quote:
Everything apart from the end happened. That would be a pretty big coincidence. Not a little coincidence like being able to find a start date that gives you a near miss on only one event. And with all the other evidence against it referring to our future., clearly it is the best possibility available.

It is no coincidence that there were local fulfillments. Prophesy works that way. You can't end it till the fat lady sing, though, and all the prophesy is a done deal. That would leave you dangling back in ancient Greece or some silly has been place, thinking that it was all wrong.

quote:
I can't and don't deny that the author was talking abut HIS future. However, I clearly should not assume that the author must have been talking about our future just because his prediction was wrong !
The visions of Daniel were not about his future! He was to go his way, and stand in his lot, till the end, because it was a long long way off still. Many days. The visions had to do with his people, the Jews. The kingdoms that would follow, right on up to the end, when we have God taking over, etc. Again, you miss the boat entirely.

quote:
You only have 490 years.

However you read it the prophecy failed.


To do what?!! To FINISH the vision, bring in everlasting righteousness, and etc etc. That is why the important last week of Daniel that has not possibly been fulfilled yet is so important. The final scene. The last act. Everything else is history, and part of that, the 62 week stuff, took us right to Jesus being cut off, the temple destroyed, etc. Right on cue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2008 2:05 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2008 3:44 PM starman has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 287 of 365 (473547)
06-30-2008 3:10 PM


Prophecy after the fact? Nostradamas? Doing things to fulfill prophesy....
I see three problems with the arguments in the OP.

First, it is incumbent upon anyone making a claim of prophesy fulfilled - biblical or otherwise - to produce iron clad evidence that the prophesy was indeed made before the actual events predicted. The BURDEN OF PROOF is on the plaintiff, not the naysayers. As I see no evidence that the OP has done this, there seems to be a failure on point one.

Second, we have all read about Nostradamas predicting this and that in modern world history. But again, no one has documented a case of being able to predict something next year based on reading Nostradamas - in other words, the prophesy is not useful for predicting real events - all we have is people saying AFTERWARD - yes Nostradamas predicted 9-11, etc. It seems to me Daniel has the same problem. And Revelations, for that matter. How many "marks of the beast" and Antichrists have been identified over the years?

Third - I have always had a problem with the story of Jesus and the donkey. How useful is a prophesy if someone does something to make sure it "fulfills the prophesy?" It smacks of contrivance to say the least on the part of the followers writing it down. Of course if OUR GUY did something in line with prophesy it adds to his credibility with the people who care about such stuff, doesn't it? Isn't it just as likely that the donkey story was invented after the fact to make things line up? (There is also the problem that the disciples actually stole the donkey, if the text is correct, but delving into the implications of that would definately be off-topic.)


Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Buzsaw, posted 07-01-2008 12:24 AM deerbreh has taken no action
 Message 292 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 2:23 AM deerbreh has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 288 of 365 (473551)
06-30-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by starman
06-30-2008 2:52 PM


Re: Curtain Call
quote:

Historical evidence for kingdoms that exist just before God takes over can't exist. Focus, man. That is ridiculous.

But we can have historical evidence for kingdoms that existed just before the author of Daniel - incorrectly - SAID that God would take over. And that is exactly what we do have,

quote:

You have no idea of the time of many of the events in Daniel obviously, and if a stone smote all the kingdoms already, and God took over, where is He? I must have missed that along with everyone else on the planet. (Except you and your sister, of course)

Quite obviously you don't have a case beyond the assumption that the prophecy couldn't fail - as it did. Since you seem to have problems getting it Daniel's prophecy FAILED. F-A-I-L-E-D.

quote:

Well, actually, I decided that the spiritual context was too much for an atheist dominated board, and not really needed. No need to get fancy, and try to explain how the past blends with the future in bible prophesy mid stream!!

Oh please, spare us the lame excuses. It is really quite simple. In your desperate scrabbling for an excuse to dismiss the evidence you made another silly mistake.

quote:

Sit down, this may be a shock to you. When we start dealing in God taking over the planet, and events of the extreme end, we must jump somewhere, cause it never happened yet. That is what prophesy happens to be all about!! This is news? If it never jumped anywhere in the future it would not BE prophesy!!! Got you there.

So what you are saying is that prophecies must have huge gaps IN THE MIDDLE because - well because you say so. Just like there has to be a huge gap between the seven and the sixty nine weeks. Oh no, it only happens when you WANT it to happen. How convenient for you.

Like I said you're desperately scrabbling for excuses to reject what the Bible really says.

quote:

In english, now??? Who ignores what? And what about this leader of the time of the extreme end? Focus.

You want to ignore the fact that Daniel is speaking of political entities because it proves that your interpretation is contrary to the text. And the leader is Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Daniel WAS WRONG about when the End TImes would occur.

quote:

Not that include a Messiah being killed in the ways the bible prophesied, and born where prophesied, and etc. Not that include Jerusalem, and the temple being utterly destroyed.

Daniel doesn't specify that he means The Messiah. Nor does he mention the Temple being utterly destroyed. Didn't you notice that Daniel says that the Temple is STILL THERE after "the destruction" ?

quote:

Say what??? The temple that had not one stone left upon another was still working?? Maybe that is not as clear as you think! Tell us how that works?

Simple. It wasn't really destroyed. Obvious, really. Oh, and Daniel doesn't say anything about "not one stone left upon another".

quote:

I call those interpretation attempts, so called, that try to stuff in destroyed temples, cut off Messiahs, and God ruling the earth, and etc. -as having happened in the time of Greece inept insults to what the bible actually is saying six ways from Sunday.

Why exactly should the Bible be insulted by accurately reporting what it says ?

quote:

Babylon was the head, and another kingdom followed, on down the line. You can't play with the order, any more than you can have Greece take over the US!!

And I don't play with the order. As you would know if you actually paid attention.

quote:

I see, so how was this bit fulfilled?!!!!!


It wasn't because DANIEL WAS WRONG.

quote:

It is no coincidence that there were local fulfillments. Prophesy works that way. You can't end it till the fat lady sing, though, and all the prophesy is a done deal. That would leave you dangling back in ancient Greece or some silly has been place, thinking that it was all wrong.

So now Daniel is stupid, so you have to pretend it doesn't mean what it says.
It's just a coincidence that pretty much everything but the actual end points to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

quote:

The visions of Daniel were not about his future!

Really ? They were in his past then ? Want to explain how you work THAT ?

quote:

He was to go his way, and stand in his lot, till the end, because it was a long long way off still. Many days. The visions had to do with his people, the Jews. The kingdoms that would follow, right on up to the end, when we have God taking over, etc. Again, you miss the boat entirely.

Oh, so he WAS talking about events that were in the future to him after all !

quote:

To do what?!! To FINISH the vision, bring in everlasting righteousness, and etc etc. That is why the important last week of Daniel that has not possibly been fulfilled yet is so important.

Yes ! That PROVES that Daniel got it wrong !


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by starman, posted 06-30-2008 2:52 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 2:52 AM PaulK has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 365 (473585)
07-01-2008 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by PaulK
06-28-2008 6:38 PM


Re: Summing up the 70 weeks
PaulK writes:

According to you. However the text itself indicates that the End Times would occur during the Hellenistic period. So you are asserting that the Bible is wrong and you are right. But you don't provide any evidence for this.

Repetitive Yada.

PaulK writes:

Now you are simply telling untruths. I have openly admitted that the End Times themselves did not occur (as if it was not too obvious to need mentioning !). And the fact that they did not occur on schedule means that the prophecy failed. DId you really think that I would pass up that fact ?

Of course you must keep on glibly repeating that the prophecy failed. That would be your MO regardless of how much evidence one produces. As I said before, your secularism is cooked if you ever admitted to one miracle in the Bible. Like Starman said, this debate is quite futile with folks like you who would never admit to anything supernatural. Imo, you do not debate in good faith for that reason. You can't debate the prophecies in good faith lest you become accountable to a higher power.

PaulK writes:

Exactly - Daniel 11-12 is supposed to be hidden until the End Times. Therefore the End Times would be when Daniel 11-12 came to light. More evidence to support my position.

Now that's certainly a juvenile argument. Just because the rest of the story was to be held back for a later time and a later prophet, (John's Revelation) doesn't mean it was for the time that he prophesied. Why in the world would God tell him, "..go your way until the end be, for you shall rest (die) and stand in your lot at the end of the days (end times)."

PaulK writes:

.... hatreds that underly them - are for another thread.

Hatred?? Where/how ever did that pop into you head from this debate?
Is it that whoever's POV disagrees with yours is hateful? Methinks you're running out of gas.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2008 6:38 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2008 1:52 AM Buzsaw has taken no action

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 365 (473587)
07-01-2008 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by deerbreh
06-30-2008 3:10 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact? Nostradamas? Doing things to fulfill prophesy....
Deerbreh, I suggest you do a thoughtful reading of Ezekiel 36-39 relative to the restoration of Israel for the end times. Then take a good hard look at Israel today after 19 centuries of worldwide dispersion and restoration, including renewing the ancient language and greening up the desolate unproductive wilderness. Nostradamus never ever came up with anything so phenomenal. I've just cited one of the many corroborating prophets who prophesied about Israel relevant to modern times.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by deerbreh, posted 06-30-2008 3:10 PM deerbreh has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2008 2:53 PM Buzsaw has taken no action

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 291 of 365 (473589)
07-01-2008 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Buzsaw
07-01-2008 12:14 AM


Re: Summing up the 70 weeks
quote:

Repetitive Yada.

As usual, you use the term "yada" to dismiss facts that you cannot refute.

quote:

Of course you must keep on glibly repeating that the prophecy failed. That would be your MO regardless of how much evidence one produces.

By which you mean that I tell the truth no matter how many lame excuses you produce. Neither of you have produced ANY evidence that there was meant to be a massive gap between the 70th week and the previous 69. Neither of you have produced a viable reading of Daniel 8. And the only reason I keep repeating the point that the prophecy failed is that Simple/Starman just can't get it.

quote:

As I said before, your secularism is cooked if you ever admitted to one miracle in the Bible. Like Starman said, this debate is quite futile with folks like you who would never admit to anything supernatural. Imo, you do not debate in good faith for that reason. You can't debate the prophecies in good faith lest you become accountable to a higher power.

Your religion would be cooked if you accepted that the Bible said what it really said. That is why you and Simple/Starman have to misrepresent it, call it "ridiculous" and invent excuses.

And of course you have to slander me for daring to demolish your arguments and expose your ignorance. You can't show any examples where I am not debating in good faith. I can find many where Simple/Starman is not - and if your participation has avoided the depths that Simple has sunk to, it is far from above criticism.

And I'm not scared of your "Higher Power". I don't believe in Satan.

quote:

Now that's certainly a juvenile argument. Just because the rest of the story was to be held back for a later time and a later prophet, (John's Revelation) doesn't mean it was for the time that he prophesied. Why in the world would God tell him, "..go your way until the end be, for you shall rest (die) and stand in your lot at the end of the days (end times)."

But it wasn't just "the rest of the story" that was to be held back. It was the part revealed to Daniel, too. And that was to be held back until the very time of the end.

Daniel 12:4


But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time;

And the rest of the story (if that is what 12:9 refers to) was also supposed to be concealed until the End Times, too.

Daniel 12:9


He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

So obviously Daniel 11-12 could not be revealed until the End Times, and according to your interpretation the Revelation must also be kept secret until then.

And why is there a problem with the author of Daniel dying ? Unless you wish to say that the 70 "weeks" are literal weeks or something the author of Daniel must place more than 400 years between the supposed time of the vision and the End Times. Historically, more than 350 yeas seperate the Decree of Cyrus and the accession of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Neither figure suggests that the supposed author of Daniel could be expected to still live
by the time of the actual events !

So tell me. Why would a gap of 350 years be too little ?

Quite clearly I have made the "juvenile" error of actually reading and understanding the Bible. A "mistake" that you obviously have not made !

quote:

Hatred?? Where/how ever did that pop into you head from this debate?

It comes from you injection of your political and racial views into the thread.
Specifically your hatred of Islam, and of Barack Obama, as well as your racism.

If you kept those out of it I wouldn't comment on them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Buzsaw, posted 07-01-2008 12:14 AM Buzsaw has taken no action

starman
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 365 (473591)
07-01-2008 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by deerbreh
06-30-2008 3:10 PM


Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
I see three problems with the arguments in the OP.

First, it is incumbent upon anyone making a claim of prophesy fulfilled - biblical or otherwise - to produce iron clad evidence that the prophesy was indeed made before the actual events predicted.



Daniel was a captive, and part of the captivity. The dates for that are known. Unless you claim that the Jews fabricated the whole book, in a sinister fashion!? Daniel was also contemporary with others.

I offer the direct words of the Almighty in Person, as evidence. This was talking to a contemporary of Daniel's, Ezekiel.
"Eze 14:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."

And again, God Himself, in Ezekiel.

" 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee"

Daniel was wise, and the chief of wise men even in Babylon, and a revealer of secrets! That means you need to try to dismiss this book as well, and it's datings!!!

Remember, if you claim a forgery, it is an elaborate one.

2".1.2 The Book's Claim That the Author Lived in the Sixth Century BC. Several times Daniel refers to himself as the witness of the events he describes (7:2; 8:1, 15, 27; 9:22; 10:2, 7; 12:5) and claims that he was present in the royal court in Babylon from shortly after his exile from Judea in 605 to around 535 BC (Dan. 1:21; 10:1). The text contains many historical references that would have been unknown to a Second Century writer. These include the assertions that: a) Neo-Babylon was the creation of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 4:30); b) Belshazzar was the second ruler of the Empire and governed Babylon in his father Nabonidus' place (implied by Belshazzar only being able to offer Daniel third position in the kingdom - 5:7, 16, 29) (Pffeifer, 1948: 757-759), and c) that Shushan was to be found in the province of Elam (8:2). In the Persian and Roman periods Shushan gave its name to the province in which it was located (Archer, 1985b: 408-409). In addition to the Daniel's own statements concerning himself we also have the testimony of Jesus in Matthew's gospel (Matt. 24:15). This establishes that he believed Daniel to be the book's author."

"Deportations of Jews from Judah and Israel took place during several eras in ancient history. The Babylonian exile lasted from 586-538 BC. “Exile” means that they were forced to live outside of the Promised Land."

Persian words found in Daniel are traceable to the Old Persian Period which ended about 300 BC (Kitchen, 1970: 42-44).

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_daniel.html

Of course you would have to add in the new testament as in on the scam, it alluded to Daniel's writings.

Table 10: Allusions to Daniel in the New Testament

NT Reference

Allusion to Daniel

Matt. 24:21

12:1

Matt. 24:30

7:13

Matt. 24:31

7:2

2 Thess. 2:3-4

7:25; 11:36

Rev. 1:14

7:9

Rev. 1:15

10:6

Rev. 1:17

8:17-18

2:10

1:12

4:2, 9

7:9 (cf. 4:34; 12:7)

5:1

12:4

5:6

8:3

5:9

3:4; 5:19

5:11

7:10

9:20

5:23

10:5-6

12:7

11:3

7:25

12:3

7:7

12:4

8:10

13:1-2

7:3-6

13:5

7:8, cf. v.36

13:11

8:3

20:4

7:9

20:12

7:10

-- And, of course Jesus Himself, that directly mentioned Daniel, and the abomination of desolation!!

Now, Ezekiel is dated to the time when the prophesies of Daniel come from!

"The Book of Ezekiel can be dated based on the links it records between the rule of King Jehoiachin (King of Jerusalem) and the other events that the book describes.

According to this system, Ezekiel was originally written in the 22 year period between 593 to 571 BC. The following table lists events in Ezekiel with their dates."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ezekiel

quote:
Second, we have all read about Nostradamas..
Too vague.

quote:
Third - I have always had a problem with the story of Jesus and the donkey. How useful is a prophesy if someone does something to make sure it "fulfills the prophesy?"

There are so many things that a man could not control, suspecting Him in this donkey caper is moot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by deerbreh, posted 06-30-2008 3:10 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2008 3:09 PM starman has replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 365 (473592)
07-01-2008 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by PaulK
06-30-2008 3:44 PM


The final bow
quote:
But we can have historical evidence for kingdoms that existed just before the author of Daniel - incorrectly - SAID that God would take over. And that is exactly what we do have,

No one questions that Greece existed, just your claims that God was to take over there!

quote:
So what you are saying is that prophecies must have huge gaps IN THE MIDDLE because - well because you say so. Just like there has to be a huge gap between the seven and the sixty nine weeks. Oh no, it only happens when you WANT it to happen. How convenient for you.
A prophesy that spans all time, and pauses for details of the time of Jesus must, of course. Long time periods just can't be stuffed into a turkey, or a Greece.

[quote]You want to ignore the fact that Daniel is speaking of political entities because it proves that your interpretation is contrary to the text. And the leader is Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Daniel WAS WRONG about when the End TImes would occur./[quote]
No I do not want to ignore earlier fulfilled parts!! They are great. But I do want to move on to the future, where the text demands, rather than hide from the rest of the bible, and try to keep the whole thing stuck in the mud of Greece!!!

quote:
Daniel doesn't specify that he means The Messiah. Nor does he mention the Temple being utterly destroyed. Didn't you notice that Daniel says that the Temple is STILL THERE after "the destruction" ?

Actually, you better elaborate, what exactly are you talking about, in that 9th chapter?

quote:
Simple. It wasn't really destroyed. Obvious, really. Oh, and Daniel doesn't say anything about "not one stone left upon another".

No, that is history. Look around, you won't see any! The wailing wall was a part of a retaining wall surrounding the area, not part of the temple, of course. That is about as destroyed as destroyed could get. That was after the Messiah was cut off by the way, after the 62 set of seven years. Remember, that the first destruction is not what is being talked about here. It was after that, after the decree to start building again, that this whole prophesy is dealing!!!

quote:
And I don't play with the order. As you would know if you actually paid attention.

The order is that the fourth kingdom was after Greece, if you paid attention!

quote:
So now Daniel is stupid, so you have to pretend it doesn't mean what it says.
It's just a coincidence that pretty much everything but the actual end points to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
No, it is part of the prophesy, and fulfillments, but we jump from there at some point, beyond any possible question, to the very end times!

There isn't really a need to fine tune when that is here, either. Looking at the destroyed temple, and killed Messiah, etc, so many weeks after the decree is plenty.

quote:
Oh, so he WAS talking about events that were in the future to him after all !

Well, everything is in the future to us once we are dead. Daniel was to have a dead body till the time of the resurrection, when his people rise from the dust of the earth. But the events had to do not with Daniel, or his lifetime, but the span of history itself, till the end.

I think you are about done here. Go gracefully.

Edited by starman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2008 3:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2008 7:57 AM starman has taken no action

Brian
Member (Idle past 4193 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 294 of 365 (473598)
07-01-2008 6:39 AM


Dingin?
I am still interested to know why Daniel wasn't included amongst the Prophets, and why it didn't enter the OT until 90 CE. do the fundies not find it strange that such an accurate, overwhelmingly important book was invisible until the 2nd century BCE.

It's amazing that people who claim that the Bible is God's word, and it s so important to them, seem determined to misrepresent it. It is also amazing that they really do not study the Bible at all, they merely take one appraoch to it and stick with that regardless of the evidence.

Starman, I don't think I have seem anyone's arguments so utterly whupped since Ray went on about the Great Pyramid!

Why are you so determined to misrepresent the Bible?

Why do you ignore the huge mountain of evidence that shows Danile was written in the mid-2nd century BCE, and that his prophecies completely failed?

Does the FACT that the book of Daniel is such a mess mean that Jesus did not die on the cross and He didn't rise 3 days later?


PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 295 of 365 (473605)
07-01-2008 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by starman
07-01-2008 2:52 AM


Re: The final bow
quote:

No one questions that Greece existed, just your claims that God was to take over there!

More misrepresentation, as usual. The issue was not whether Greece existed, the issue was comparign the Book of Daniel to history.

And of course, "my" claims are right there in the Bible.

quote:

A prophesy that spans all time, and pauses for details of the time of Jesus must, of course. Long time periods just can't be stuffed into a turkey, or a Greece.

The prophecy of 70 weeks doesn't claim to span all time. Just 490 years. Any longer time period is of your invention.

quote:

No I do not want to ignore earlier fulfilled parts!! They are great. But I do want to move on to the future, where the text demands, rather than hide from the rest of the bible, and try to keep the whole thing stuck in the mud of Greece!!!

The text DOESN'T demand it. YOU do. And there's no "hiding" from the rest of the Bible. Except on your part.

quote:

Actually, you better elaborate, what exactly are you talking about, in that 9th chapter?


I see you've forgotten again.

9:27


...in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate...

The sacrifice and grain offerigns are those in the Temple. The abominations are pagan rites in the Temple. Therefore the Temple still exists and was accepting sacrifices up to the point they were banned.

See also Daniel 8:12-14 and Daniel 12:11-12

quote:

No, that is history. Look around, you won't see any! The wailing wall was a part of a retaining wall surrounding the area, not part of the temple, of course

I wasn't talking about history. I was talking about the "destruction" in Daniel 9.

quote:

The order is that the fourth kingdom was after Greece, if you paid attention!

I see that you haven't been paying attention. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Kingdoms are not named. It is only your interpretation that places the 4th as "after Greece". But since we know that the last Kingdom is Greek, obviously your interpretation is wrong.

quote:

No, it is part of the prophesy, and fulfillments, but we jump from there at some point, beyond any possible question, to the very end times!

There is no question that this jump is something that you made up, something that is not present nor can be justified from the text. That seems like a pretty good reason for rejecting it.

quote:

There isn't really a need to fine tune when that is here, either. Looking at the destroyed temple, and killed Messiah, etc, so many weeks after the decree is plenty.

Maybe you think that a 28000% error is just "fine tuning". In fact given how many mistakes you make maybe it is - to you.

quote:

I think you are about done here. Go gracefully.

I would like to thank my opponents for putting up such an abysmally poor fight. Without their contribution I would not have achieved such a crushing and decisive victory.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 365 (473610)
07-01-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Brian
06-28-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Summing up the 70 weeks
Here are some factors which may be considered in answer to your question:

As I have mentioned, the entrenched educational system of the scribal school broadened in the Hellenistic period (perhaps earlier), spreading its values to non-scribal classes; literacy spread, and the scribes themselves found a wider circle for their services, and, concomitantly, expanded their own intellectual interests to accommodate those of their widened intellectual circle. According to 2 Macc. 4:9-14 (cf. 1 Macc 1:14), a gymnasium and an ephebeion were introduced into Jerusalem, in 175 BCE. No doubt they were already present in the many Greek-style cities already established (and many still to be built) especially on the Palestinian coast and in Transjordan, but including Samaria and Bethshean.[16] According to 2 Maccabees, these were eagerly frequented by the priests especially. If the Hasmoneans officially disapproved of these institutions, they were either unable or unwilling (or both) to halt the spread of Greek education. But they in a position to foster the Hebrew language, create a Hebrew library, and, perhaps, encourage the development of a Jewish version of the Greek style of education. Between the scribal school and the later rabbinic school, whose aim was religious: to turn out good Jews, lie important developments of which we have too little evidence. It seems likely, however, that a specific emphasis on teaching Judaism(in its various forms) emerged, while some of the basic elements of Greek education (music, gymnastics) were discouraged. Given the indispensability of the Greek language, and the presence of so many Greek-speaking Jews both resident in and visiting Jerusalem, it is impossible to imagine that education for the priestly, administrative and ruling classes in Judah did not include many Greek elements.

The distinction between a professional education and a non-professional education entails a distinction between kinds of writing too, which is visible in the canonized literature. We can identity (or hope to identify) literary activity undertaken by the scribes in furtherance of their professional interests: writings that display the scribal ethos itself: historiographic, didactic, liturgical, and legal. Such writings, since they belong in spirit as well as in letter to the scribal class, lend themselves naturally to being canonized by copying, studying and teaching in the schools. Given the likelihood of specialization among the scribes, where different branches dealt with the temple cult, the temple liturgy, fiscal administration, diplomatic correspondence with Persian officials, and perhaps much else, we may be able to identify particular schools as the main agents of canonizing.

But not all the canonized books or stories come from a scribal milieu. Many stories-Joseph, Jonah, Ruth, Esther, Daniel-deal with questions of ethnicity, sometimes to the suppression of piety. They do, of course, diverge: for Jonah and Ruth, non-Jews are not to be shunned; for Esther and Daniel Jewish identity is something to be preserved from threatening foreigners, even though foreign rulers are not necessarily bad. Issues of gender, which have already been noted, may be related: the question of identity, which was identified as a matter of national importance, of class importance, in the torah and prophetic books, becomes a more personal matter. Alongside the personalization comes a personalization of piety too: what does mean for an individual to be a Judean, a Jew? We ought not to consider this purely a diaspora matter, for diaspora Jews did not write in Hebrew: it is a matter of ethnicity within Judah itself.

These stories ascribe little importance to the temple or cult. The visions of Daniel contrast sharply here with the stories. Jonah mocks it in his psalm: it has nothing to do with Esther or Ruth, and certainly Solomon's antics in the Song are unconnected with his temple building. There are, then, a number of writings, many featured in this chapter, that betray an interest in individual identity. The factors promoting this are several. First, the reading classes for which the stories are told are concerned with their own individual careers: their fortunes depend less on co-operation with others. But in the wider cultural world they inhabit, their own social identity is important. It is, after all, a label they have to wear. Jonah, Esther, Ruth and Daniel all deal with the image of a Jew (or "Hebrew") among non-Jews. In this they point not only a diaspora world but also to a Judah that is becoming much more cosmopolitan. Their travels, too, force them to face the question of their ethnic identity. Jonah, asked who he is: he answers "I am a Hebrew and worship Yahweh the god of heaven". Precisely what that meant was what Judean schools would try to teach.

In what circumstances do such writings move on the path towards canonization? How is a hitherto scribal canon opened up to such works? Is it simply that they are widely read? There are two possibilities: one is that these works were used very widely in the school curriculum. Indeed, Jonah, Ruth and Esther are still used as college texts to teach classical Hebrew, because they are short and grammatically simple. Another factor may be a concern deliberately to loosen the control of one class on the canon and to sanction a wider range of literature held in the temple libraries


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3225
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 297 of 365 (473647)
07-01-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Buzsaw
07-01-2008 12:24 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact? Nostradamas? Doing things to fulfill prophesy....
Well, you see, patterns repeat themselves, and often , patterns are imagined where there are none existing. This is the basis of 'end of times' prophecy.

I see people taking vague symbolism, and reinventing what it was meant to portray. When someone sagely quotes this vague symbolism, and insist it means 'thus and thus', sorry, but it isn't clear their claim is valid.

I have yet to see any prophecy that does not do that.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 298 of 365 (473649)
07-01-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by starman
07-01-2008 2:23 AM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
I am underwhelmed. Either you repeat the basic mantra that it had to be dated to such and such a time because the writer mentioned certain things (that is what is known as a circular argument.) or you kiss it off with some quip. And no one is arguing that the book of Daniel was not available to New Testament writers. So I fail to see the point there.

The Nostradamas example was to point out that claims of fulfillment of ancient predictions are a dime a dozen and how are the Daniel predictions/fulfillments any different? In other words, name ONE prophesy from Daniel which has been used to successfully predict a modern event BEFORE it happened. Be specific so that the evidence can be examined and other explanations ruled out.

You didn't even try to address the point of the donkey story. "There are so many things......" What things in connection with this incident? It was cited as fulfillment of prophesy. I pointed out the obvious fallacy of that. You didn't give an adequate defense.

Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 2:23 AM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by starman, posted 07-01-2008 4:13 PM deerbreh has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 299 of 365 (473650)
07-01-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by ramoss
07-01-2008 2:53 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact? Nostradamas? Doing things to fulfill prophesy....
quote:
Well, you see, patterns repeat themselves, and often , patterns are imagined where there are none existing. This is the basis of 'end of times' prophecy.
I see people taking vague symbolism, and reinventing what it was meant to portray. When someone sagely quotes this vague symbolism, and insist it means 'thus and thus', sorry, but it isn't clear their claim is valid.

I have yet to see any prophecy that does not do that.


And you are not likely to. I have been following this stuff since I was a wide eyed kid and believed it all. Let's just say I have a little different prespective now. The amazing thing to me is that folks will believe these end times guys even as the dates for certain predicted events come and go with nary a successful hit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2008 2:53 PM ramoss has taken no action

starman
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 365 (473652)
07-01-2008 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by deerbreh
07-01-2008 3:09 PM


Re: Collaboration for Daniel Dates
quote:
it had to be dated to such and such a time because the writer mentioned certain things (that is what is known as a circular argument.)..

Not really. There isn't reason to claim it is some elaborate forgery, that is a conspiracy theory that can't be supported. Do you then also question the dating of Ezekiel?

There is enough about the book of Daniel to assume it is from that time, as I already gave links for, and there are plenty more. There are details that could not have been known, apparently centuries later, for example.

So, what we have is a bible hero, known about, and mentioned in Ezekiel, by another captive, that can be dated.

You also have presented, and cannot present any reason to doubt that it is what it is, and not some state conspiracy, or elaborate hoax.

You therefore have given me no reason at all to doubt it, and, furthermore, the fact that you feel it must be explained away is evidence that what it says is astounding, unimaginably supernatural, and something people like you can't deal with, except to be in denial.

As for trivializing the fact that the new testament alluded to this important work, and Jesus, as well spoke directly of it, that really isn't a valid point. Why? Because you would need to prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead, and fulfill all the things it is known that He did, proving that He was God. If He was God, then He was there in Daniel's day, and arranged to have the messages given to Daniel to begin with. It was not just Daniel's prophesies Jesus fulfilled, it was the whole scriptures, basically. You go against the whole gang there, not just Daniel.
Since you could not begin do that, all you really offer is personal incredulity based on ignorance.

You not only seem to suggest that Israel was in a conspiracy to forge the book of Daniel, but that all the martyrs and apostles, and believers of the new testament were also in on it.

Apparently some fragments were dated to a few centuries BC.

" The Dead Sea Scrolls have lifted their voice in this controversy. Due to the amount of Daniel fragments found in various caves near Qumran, it appears that this prophetic book was one of the most treasured by that community. Perhaps the popularity of Daniel was due to the fact that the people of Qumran lived during the anxious period in which many of these prophecies actually were being fulfilled. For whatever reason, Daniel was peculiarly safeguarded to the extent that we have at our disposal parts of all chapters of Daniel, except chapters 9 and 12. However, one manuscript (4QDanc; 4 = Cave 4; Q = Qumran; Danc = one of the Daniel fragments arbitrarily designated "c" for clarification), published in November 1989, has been dated to the late second-century B.C. (see Hasel, 1992, 5[2]:47). Two other major documents (4QDanb, 4QDana) have been published since 1987, which contribute to scholarly analysis of Daniel. These recently-released fragments have direct bearing on the integrity and authenticity of the book of Daniel."

" The relatively copious remains of Daniel indicate the importance of this book to the Qumran community. Further, there are clear indications that this book was considered "canonical" for the community, which meant it was recognized as an authoritative book on a par with other biblical books (e.g., Deuteronomy, Kings, Isaiah, Psalms). The canonicity of Daniel at Qumran is indicated, not only by the prolific fragments, but by the manner in which it is referenced in other materials. One fragment employs the quotation, "which was written in the book of Daniel the prophet." This phrase, similar to Jesus¡¯ reference to "Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15), was a formula typically applied to quotations from canonical Scripture at Qumran (see Hasel, 1992, 5[2]:51).

The canonical status of Daniel at Qumran is important to the date and authenticity of the book. If, as critical scholars allege, Daniel reached its final form around 160 B.C., how could it have attained canonical status at Qumran in a mere five or six decades?"

http://www.3dsxtreme.com/Bookof%20Daniel.htm

The historian Josepheus also considered Daniel to be what it is.

"There is no possibility that Josephus could have regarded Daniel as belonging to the Writings. Very clearly he included it among the Prophets, along with Solomon's prophetic parable of love (S of Songs) and the exilic and postexilic books of history, all of which were composed from a prophetic perspective. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that the Masoretic division of the canon, coming as it did six or seven centuries after Flavius Josephus, has no bearing whatever on the date of Daniel's composition or on its status as a truly prophetic work."

http://www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html

And for other historical confirmation and evidences, (from same link) we have this!!!

"First, Daniel was listed among the prophets in the Septuagint translation (hence the position of our English Bibles through the medium of the Vulgate). Second, Josephus (first century A.D.) listed Daniel among the prophets. Third, Melito, bishop of Sardis (A.D.70), did the same. Fourth, Origen (d. A.D. 254) listed Daniel before Ezekiel and the twelve prophets. R. Laird Harris thus argues not only for the full canonicity of the book of Daniel but also its inclusion among the prophetic books in the most ancient Hebrew collections."

The evidence is solid, you need more than a conspiracy hunch. That is silly.

Edited by starman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2008 3:09 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
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