There's a wealth of evidence that the 'prophecies' in Daniel were indeed written well after the events that they were supposed to have 'predicted'.
On a very very basic level, we have no text of Daniel that can be dated to earlier than the 2nd century BCE.
The we have the fact that the book is never mentioed in any extant Jewish literature before the 2nd century BCE.
We have the fact that the book wasn't added to the Jewish canon until 90 CE, it was not included in the earlier canon that was closed c. 2nd century BCE.
We have a host of historical inaccuracies, which only improve the closer we get to the 2nd century BCE. If the book was written by someone living in the 6th century BCE we would expect the author not to have made som many historical errors, for example, it wouldn't be too much to ask for him to at least get the succession of Babylonian rulers.
The reference to 'Chaldean' as another word for 'Soothsayer' is another clue as 'Chaldean' was never used in this context until the 2nd century BCE.
The book was written by more than one person, one scholar thinks there may be as many as nine authors.
Ecclesiastes, written about 180 BCE, does not include Daniel in its list of great Israelites.
Chapter 8 doesn't really make much sense if written in the 6th century BCE. The author(s) cannot make up there mind(s) when the cessation of daily sacrifices are to stop. It starts in 8:14 with 2,300 mornings and evenings (3 years, 35 days), but in 7:25 it is given as 3 1/2 years, in 9:27 it is 3 1/2 years, in 12:11 it is 1,290 days but in the very next verse it is 1,335 days.
12: 11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
It is a complete mess, and best explained by recognising that the writer(s) must have been writing during the reign of Antiochus and really didn't know when the 'Abomination that makes Desolate' would be finished. The fact that the Zues Olympios is mentioned also points to a late date.
There'e a clear defining line in Daniel between history and prophecy, if we look at 11:22-45 we find a description that fits Antiochus Epiphanes. The demarcation can be found at verse 40, where a third campaign against Egypt is recorded, however there was no third campaign. Daniel also claims that Antiochus will die in Palestine, but we know he died in the east in Iran. Thus, it looks as if Daniel was written about 166-165 BCE, because that is where historical facts relating to the 2nd century BCE go askew.
There's far more to discuss, such as the host of later interpolations into the text, but I couldn't get a simple answer to my very first question, so much of the debate was worthless.
If Starman was able to have a civil debate, then we could have discussed a whole range of issues.
But, even this cursory summary, and the complete lack of evidence for the text existing before the 2nd century BCE, does not help the 6th century BCE guys, and the biggest condemnation is that the main prophecy of Daniel failed.
The pro-6th century BCE guys on this thread have actually shown nothing except religious fervour in support of their 6th century BCE date. Starman, in particular, takes a very naive approach to the composition of the biblical texts, which is fine, he is fully entitled to do that. However, he shouldn't get upset when he discovers that this approach doesn't merit much of a response from people who have studied the Bible at a high academic level.
It has been correctly noted that this thread is over the 300 post limit. I'll leave this thread open another day for people to post summations. Please, no replies to summations, and no continuation of discussion. If anyone is interested in continuing the discussion, please propose a continuation thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
Please, no replies.
Since that message is a whole three messages back and possibly on a previous page - I'm repeating it.
No replies to this or any other message in this topic. Summation statements only.
Arguments can be made until the cows come home on semantics of all of the prophecies which corroborate and support the reliability of the individual prophecies, both New Testament and Old Testament.
When one takes a hard look at current world events in the region of the nations relative to these prophecies, especially the phenomenal restoration of the nation of Israel after nearly two millenniums after their dispersion to the ends of the earth as prophesied by numerous prophets from all levels of prominence, including kings and shepherds, the semantics debated in this thread become secondary to the obvious; that the prophets were divinely inspired by a higher intelligence to reveal to students of the Holy Bible what should transpire on planet earth when their time in history should come to be fulfilled.
The underlying purpose of Jehovah, god of the Bible has always been to defeat the forces of evil in the universe and establish a messianic kingdom on planet earth in Jerusalem on Mt Zion, the Temple Mount. This necessitates the gathering of the armies of the earth to the region of the kingdom, the Middle East which is known as Har-meggon. The book of Daniel, as interpreted by the fundamentals of the corroborated and assembled prophets, both OT and NT fully supports and explains what has been observed throughout history and what is in the daily news today. The messianic little stone of the Daniel 2 image which destroys the kingdoms of the world empires and becomes the great mountain, so to speak by messiah will soon come back to where he ascended into heaven as promised.
In the last book of Daniel he was instructed by God to go his way, for the book/revelation was to be sealed until the appointed time. Along came John, the revelator who in the book of Revelation filled in many of the dots to be understood understood by the people living as their fulfillment came to fruition. We see this in all that's happening today, including the explosion of knowledge (see Daniel 12, the advance of technology and travel as prophesied by Daniel and more specifically in Revelation, the institution of a number and mark world monetary system, phenomenal climate change to bring widespread drought, disaster and destruction, etc.
Secularists, it's high time for you to discard the fobia you have towards higher intelligence than what is visible to the naked physical eye and acknowledge the wonder of the phenomena relative to enlightment derived exclusively from the Biblical prophecies. :cool:
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Daniel 8 clearly places the End Times in the Hellenistic period. When the "Chrisatians" deign to even admit that the relevant verses even exist all we see are lame excuses.
The seventy weeks and Daniel 11 also contain clear references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
The 490 years represented by the "70 weeks" are clearly long past. The only justification for inventing the massive gap is that the events didn't happen at the "right" time. As clear an example of begging the question as you could hope to see.
No, there's no great prophecy here - only the distortions and misrepresentations of "Christians" who hold the Bible in contempt.