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Author Topic:   The Bible's Flat Earth
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 466 of 473 (554321)
04-07-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by knight4christ
04-07-2010 8:04 AM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome to EvC,

Granny has already address some of your issues, but I would like to add a bit of advice.

It helps avoid misunderstanding and keeps participants on the same page if you provide the book, chapter, and verse numbers of the scriptures you are referring to.

Again welcome and fruitful debating.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by knight4christ, posted 04-07-2010 8:04 AM knight4christ has not yet responded

  
rockondon
Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 467 of 473 (554549)
04-08-2010 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by purpledawn
04-06-2010 2:24 PM


Re: Flat Ground or Flat Planet
Purpledawn,

rockondon: Therefore, you were in error. The word 'erets' has several different meanings, one of which is the earth.
Purpledawn: Yes, it means earth as in ground, it does not mean Earth as in planet. Do you really not see the difference?

Wow, its not just a river in Egypt anymore.

I no longer believe a reasoned argument will penetrate this impenetrable wall of denial you've erected, but I'll provide some more sources that agree that 'erets' does indeed include the planet Earth as one of its meanings for EVC's more objective members to read.

If you were right about erets, Genesis 1:1 would read that "God made the heavens and some ground." Doesn't quite have that same ring to it hey?

I've already shown the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon...

erets:
a. earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0776
...which I think would have laid the issue to rest for pretty much any rational person. I think its absurd to think that the "whole earth" and "earth as opposed to heaven" is merely refering to the ground and not the planet. But maybe that's just me.
Here are some other equally 'ambiguous' definitions
Smith's Bible Dictionary
The term is used in two widely-different senses: (1) for the material of which the earth's surface is composed; (2) as the name of the planet on which man dwells. The Hebrew language discriminates between these two by the use of separate terms, adamah for the former, erets for the latter.
http://dictionary.babylon.com/earth/
Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but "the name of the planet on which man dwells" kinda sounds like a reference to the planet Earth to me.
As the rendering of _'erets_, it means the whole world (Gen. 1:2);
http://define.com/earth
The Hebrew word for “earth” (erets) and the way it is used in the Old Testament very adequately depicts and is a type of the earthly portion of Christianity. It occurs over 2,500 times in the Old Testament. It is not only used to denote the entire planet earth, but it is also used for...
http://www.openheavensministries.org/...essages/nog1c1v1.htm
Erets can mean the planet, the land and its inhabitants, ground, soil, country, or territory
http://www.theistic-evolution.com/theisticevolution.html
Hebrew word for “earth” is usually transliterated as ‘erets. (Strong’s Hebrew #776) The Greek word is usually transliterated as Ge. (Strong’s Greek #1093) Both of these words can refer to the planet earth.
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/is-44-24/
Eretz; hence its definition as planet Earth here is...
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1443996
Hence mention of mountains and formation of the earth ('erets, physical planet)
http://www.sage.edu/faculty/salomd/ld/psalms5.html

Do you still want to pretend erets never refers to the planet earth? Doesn't matter to me either way since the truth of the matter is pretty obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by purpledawn, posted 04-06-2010 2:24 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by purpledawn, posted 04-09-2010 9:39 AM rockondon has not yet responded
 Message 469 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2010 10:55 AM rockondon has not yet responded
 Message 470 by bluescat48, posted 04-09-2010 11:31 AM rockondon has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 468 of 473 (554615)
04-09-2010 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by rockondon
04-08-2010 9:39 PM


Re: Flat Ground or Flat Planet
quote:
If you were right about erets, Genesis 1:1 would read that "God made the heavens and some ground." Doesn't quite have that same ring to it hey?
If you need it to refer to the entire planet, no it doesn't have the same ring. It's not about ring, but reality. Yes, eretz refers to the ground beneath one's feet, but at that time the writer couldn't have been referring to the entire globe unless he knew it existed. The writer was referring to land as opposed to the sky.

Genesis 1 was a Priestly writing, which was written between 722 and 609 BCE. Show me that the writer knew he was standing on a globe. Show me that he was referring to more than what he had knowledge of.

Spherical Earth

The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy from around the 6th century BCE,[1] but remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

quote:
Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but "the name of the planet on which man dwells" kinda sounds like a reference to the planet Earth to me.
Dictionaries include meanings as they evolve. Earth didn't mean the name of the planet until it was deemed a planet and named. (1400 CE) Smith's Bible Dictionary is dated 1884. It was the name of the planet at that time. Show me it was considered the name of the planet at the time of the Priestly writer.

The A&E story was predominately the J&E writers. They wrote before 722 BCE. Show me they had a name for the planet or were referring to more than what they knew was inhabited.

Even Ptolemy's world map from 150 CE could only include the lands known to them. Map

quote:
Do you still want to pretend erets never refers to the planet earth? Doesn't matter to me either way since the truth of the matter is pretty obvious.
I don't need to pretend. I didn't say the word never refers to the planet earth. I said erets doesn't mean planet (which it doesn't) and that it isn't used as the name of the planet in the Bible because they didn't know they were on a planet.

It does refer to the ground beneath one's feet as opposed to the sky above. It can refer to all the land known to man at the time or part of it.

Show me the writers knew there was a whole globe to refer to.
Show me that the writers were concerned with the globe as opposed to their own people and land.

The world according to Hekateaus. Map 500 BCE

IMO, the Bible writers were not concerned with global issues. They were concerned with their people, their land, and their interactions with the peoples and kingdoms around them. The Bible writers weren't writing about science. They were writing about social issues. They described their environment creatively in poetic writings. They may be reflecting the belief of the time or just creatively describing how things look from a human viewpoint. They could also be using descriptions that are familiar to their audience regardless of what they themselves know.

I don't feel the writers were referring to a planet or a globe when they wrote for their audiences. I feel they were referring to the more limited known area around them.

Show me otherwise.

ABE: Words can have many meanings and acquire more meanings over time, but the correct meaning from the correct time has to be used within a sentence. It matters what meanings were available for the word then, not now. IOW, we can't use a meaning before its time.

Edited by purpledawn, : Added thought


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by rockondon, posted 04-08-2010 9:39 PM rockondon has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 469 of 473 (554625)
04-09-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by rockondon
04-08-2010 9:39 PM


enitre earth != planet
I'll provide some more sources that agree that 'erets' does indeed include the planet Earth as one of its meanings for EVC's more objective members to read.

Once again, I'll point out that it is impossible for the writers to have the concept of a planet.

If you were right about erets, Genesis 1:1 would read that "God made the heavens and some ground." Doesn't quite have that same ring to it hey?

We all agree that it is referring to the earth in its entirety.

You're equating that with the concept of a planet and we're saying that it could not be that.

I think its absurd to think that the "whole earth" and "earth as opposed to heaven" is merely refering to the ground and not the planet.

We're not saying its "merely refering to the ground", as we've ackowledge it can refer to the entire earth, we're saying that it cannot be referring to a planet.

I think you're equating 'entire earth' with planet, and 'not planet' with not the entire earth. Both of those are wrong. 'Not planet' can still be the entire earth, and entire earth could not have been refering to the conept of a planet.

Do you still want to pretend erets never refers to the planet earth?

Will you ackowledge that the writers were incapable of having the concept of a planet and that we accept it referring to the entire earth while not being the concept of a planet?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by rockondon, posted 04-08-2010 9:39 PM rockondon has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2418 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 470 of 473 (554633)
04-09-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by rockondon
04-08-2010 9:39 PM


Re: Flat Ground or Flat Planet
You seem to be making the common mistake of trying to understand the Bible using 21st century intelligence rather that trying to understand it through the eyes of the story tellers/writers.
There is no way that these ancient people knew that the earth was a planet. Earth, to them, was a flat fixed point on which all life existed as opposed to "The Heavens"which was everything above them. had no knowledge that the earth was a planet, therefore the meaning of erets could not be the planet, but what they considered the whole earth was.

Edited by bluescat48, : sp


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by rockondon, posted 04-08-2010 9:39 PM rockondon has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1686 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 471 of 473 (554976)
04-11-2010 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2010 12:24 PM


Globe of Crates
I found an interesting site with ancient "world" maps.

(I don't know how to get the photos in the post so follow the links. )

The Babylonian map of 2500 BCE. Flat disk encircled by water.

We have Thales World Map in 640-546 BCE. Looks like the sphere idea is creeping in.

Thale's assistant, Anaximander, did a World Map 611-546 BCE.

The World Map according to Hecataeus 500 BCE.

The Globe of Crates (150 BCE) is the first instance I could find a a globe shape. Notice the land masses. Apparently Crates plopped the other three land masses on the map to make it even.

Notice the names of the land masses. The top right land mass was called "œcumene" which means:

Ecumene (also spelled œcumene or oikoumene) a term originally used in the Greco-Roman world to refer to the inhabited earth (or at least the known part of it).

Oikoumene is the term in the Bible that is usually translated as world or earth. Notice it is tagged to the land mass and not the globe.

The names of the other three:

Having a love of symmetry, then, he predicted three additional continents along with the oecumene: Perioeci (lit. "same latitude, other side"), Antoeci (opposite the Perioeci) and Antipodes (lit., “opposite the feet”).

Now this is what the Greek mathematicians and mapmakers, etc. knew. What the Hebrews knew is hard to say, but they had to be influenced in some way.

Looking at the globe of Crates, I don't feel they viewed the globe as earth, name or otherwise. I feel they viewed the inhabited land mass as earth.

I couldn't find any more on the battle between the sky as a tent or sphere. Still looking.

ABE: Interesting link. Jewish Encyclopedia - Astronomy

Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

Edited by purpledawn, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2010 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-12-2010 10:29 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 472 of 473 (555130)
04-12-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by purpledawn
04-11-2010 7:53 AM


Re: Globe of Crates
That's very interesting, PD. Thanks for posting it.

I'll read into it further later.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by purpledawn, posted 04-11-2010 7:53 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3316 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 473 of 473 (557234)
04-24-2010 12:47 AM


spam deletion

Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion


    
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