No Stealing, Unless from Egyptians

Jacob and Esau,It is believed by various writers that the story of Jacob and Esau as related in Genesis has an esoteric as well as an exoteric meaning--that Jacob has reference to the female creative energy throughout Nature, or, rather, to the great mass of people who in an early age of the human race believed in the superior importance of the female in the office of reproduction, and that Esau signifies the male. Attention is called to the fact that Esau is represented as a "hairy" man, rough-voiced and easily beguiled, while Jacob, on the other hand, is smooth-faced, soft-voiced, and the favorite of his mother.There is indeed much in this myth which seems to indicate that it is an allegory beneath which are veiled certain facts connected with the struggle between two early contending sects regarding the relative importance of the sexes in reproduction.Esau, or Edom, and Jacob are mystic names for a man and a woman, and that round these, historians wove a web of fancy; that ultimately the cognomen Jacob was recognized, and that to allow the Jewish people to trace their descent from a male rather than a female, the appellation of Israel was substituted in later productions."

A prostitute; a woman who gives herself for money or religious ritual. Many Canaanite religions used harlots in their rituals, Rahab was a harlot.
Isaiah 1:21
Nahum 3:4Joshua 2 tells the story of Rahab the prostitute, who received and hid the two men sent by Moses. She became the grand-grand-mother of David, ancestor of Jesus Christ, as described in the genealogy of Jesus in Matt.1:5.Judah, the forth child of Jacob, slept with what he thought was a "prostitute", but in fact, he slept with his daughter-in-law, Tamar, disguised as a prostitute. Tamar became pregnant, and when Judah knew it he ordered to burn her alive (Gen.38:24). But as she was being led off to be burned, she send word to her father-in-law, and sent to him the pledge given to her by the man who slept with her, the seal, cord and staff.What is the seal staff and the cord symbolic of?Royal token of Authority.Now when we look at the pagan roots of the Hebrews this makes sense the Holy prostitute such as Inanna/Ishtar, is seen in Hagar and Tamar then it carries on to Mary.I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am the mother and the daughter. . . .
I am she whose wedding is great,
And I have not taken a husband. . . .
I am shameless;
I am ashamed. . . .
I am godless,
And I am one whose God is great.Thunder, Perfect Mind
Gnostic PoemThe Goddess in JerusalemHerod Antipas became ruler of the land through the ancient "Sacred Marriage" with the High Queen Mariamne, a priestess of the Triple Goddess Mari-Anna-Ishtar who was popularly worshiped at the time of Christ (B,C,D,E *). This Goddess was noted for her triple-towered temple or "magdala." It is important to note that much of the imagery in the Gospels, especially regarding the Marys, corresponds to the worship of this Goddess Mari-Anna-Ishtar (B,C,D,E *). This will be explored in more detail in the following sections.http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/magdalene.html

Stormdancer,Thanks for the link you provided. It was most illuminating. I always appreciate learning new things. It is good to find out the historicity of where things evolved from.Verzem

Storm offers, "Herod Antipas became ruler of the land through the ancient "Sacred Marriage" with the High Queen Mariamne, a priestess of the Triple Goddess Mari-Anna-Ishtar who was popularly worshiped at the time of Christ (B,C,D,E *)."Others are of the opinion that the goddess called Mari is an "Old Europe" goddess circa 4000 BCE and preceding the Indo-European incursions of earth goddesses or mother goddesses known by other names. Due to their isolation, the Basque seem to have preserved the Old Europe Mari. See: http://www.evertype.com/misc/basque-jies/basque-jies.html (no endorsement of or belief in the materials or theories supplied by the link implied or given by this submitter)For another source closer to Palestine regarding this Miryai Magdala figure with regard to "I am this that and the other" statements, see: http://www.essenes.crosswinds.net/subindex9.htm and for additional information on this Essene-offshoot sect, see: http://essenes.crosswinds.net/subindex9.htm (Again, no endorsement of or belief in the materials or theories advanced by this organization either ... simply supplying information in response to Storm's info linking Herodian bloodlines to the Old Europe Mari as opposed to the post Indo-European incursion variety goddess.)[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-02-2004][This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-02-2004]

Many names many similarities, same worship of the rites of spring, nothing is new under the sun, the importance of their fertility rites is found most everywhere. Their lives depended on it once agriculture started increasing the food supply and then the population.Perhaps man was meant to remain in the hunter and Gatherers garden of Eden after all.It is all about seasons only the names have changed for culture to culture.Ishtar becomes the planet Venus, and the double aspect of the goddess is
made to correspond to the strikingly different phases of Venus in the summer and winter seasons."I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."( Venus)Jesus calls himself the bright and morning star in Revelations, morning star is Venus.The churches of revelations were goddess cult centers.'Ishtar's Descent to the Nether World'Jesus descended into hell.Ishtar as third figure in a triadNot unlike Father, son/Jesus, and Holy ghost.Babylonian scriptures called her the "Light of the World Jesus is called the light of the world, she is also called Leader of Hosts,
Opener of the Womb, Righteous Judge, Lawgiver,
Goddess of Goddesses, Bestower of Strength,
Framer of All decress, Lady of Victory,
Forgiver of Sins Ring a bell?, Torch of Heaven and Earth.Many are her sacred titles - "Exalted Light of Heaven",
"She Who Begets All", "Guardian of the Law" and"Shepherdess of the Lands" -Jesus was the shepherdShe was the Queen of heaven (Scharrat Schame) and the mother, who had born the world and still remained a virgin.a lion, her holy animal.Jesus was the lion of the tribe of Judah.Her familiar and symbolic animal is the dove.The comforter or holy spirit is the DOVE.As well as being renowned for her powers of creation, divine rulership, prophesy and desire,Ishtar was also regarded as a healer, Jesus was know as healer.and we know that her effigy once was transported all the way to Egypt in order to heal the then sick Amenhotep III.In the Old Testament her worship is regarded as an abomination, and it is Ishtar's worshipers and her ishtarishtu (sacred prostitutes) who were to be found even at the doors of the Hebrew god's great temple, much to the consternation of his priests and prophets.The original pagan festival of "Easter" celebrated the return of life via the fertility of Ishtar's conception of Tammuz. Worshippers of the Babylonian religion celebrated the conception of Tammuz on the first Sunday after the Full Moon that followed the Spring Equinox.9 months after "Easter" came the pagan festival of Saturnalia, which always began on December 25th (and lasted 12 days), and was the celebration of the birth of the sun-god supposedly concieved on "Easter".You are most welcome,

Abshalom,And my thanks to you too! I appreciate the sharing of knowledge. Sometimes you don't find these things when you search.Verzem

Abshalom, I very much enjoy the essenes web page I have read it before, also the Transformation of European and Anatolian Culture 4500-2500 B.C., web page ,the Anatolian Culture being one of my favorite haunts.The Seven Churches mentioned by St. John in the Book of Revelations (The Apocalypse)
are all found in Turkey.The joining of Ashur with Ishtar produced a son named Ninurta, and this is the first formally recorded triad of Goddess, Consort, and Divine Child in the Near East.AnatoliaAnatolia, which is also called Asia Minor, is a broad peninsula jutting westward from the Asian continent itself. To the north lies the Black Sea, to the south the easternmost part of the Mediterranean. At the entrance to the Black Sea are the Dardanelles and it is here that Asia comes closest to the continent of Europe. Not surprisingly, Anatolia has always been the main link between the Orient and the Occident.In Neolithic Anatolia (present day Turkey) the Great Goddess was worshiped in the shrines of Catal Huyuk around 6500 BC.Anatolia was invaded sometime before 2000 BC by the Indo-Europeans and a group of them settled in a part of Anatolia known as Hatti. The invaders and local people came to be known collectively as the Hittites.These are the same Hittites who sacked Babylonia in 1600 BC and suppressed the worship of Ishtar in favor of their god Marduk.Most of the references to the Goddess in the literature and texts of Anatolia alluded to the older Hattian deities despite the fact that the only records allowed to survive were written after the conquest of Anatolia by the Indo-Europeans.One of the most important female deities to survive was the Sun Goddess Arinna. After the conquest she was assigned a husband who was symbolized as a storm god.At the time of the Hittite invasions of other lands, many of the people who were Goddess-worshipers may have fled to the west. The renowned temple of the Goddess in the city of Ephesus was the target of the apostle Paul's zealous missionary efforts (Acts 19:27). This temple remained active until 380 AD.Note storm god,
I believe this storm god became YHWH.

Storm: Your post to which I replied indicated that the Herodian lineage was somehow tied to or empowered by a goddess's three-part name that contained the name of the Old Europe goddess Mari, and that the three crowns somehow constitute "Magdala." My reply only supplied information that I thought was pertinent to a distinct separation of Mari and Magdalene by their individual connections to two very separate cultures. I did not intend any contradiction of your take on things.In post 20, you reply, "Many names many similarities, same worship of the rites of spring, nothing is new under the sun, the importance of their fertility rites is found most everywhere ... It is all about seasons only the names have changed for culture to culture." I agree to a large extent.I also understand the connections regarding seasonal rites, harvest rituals, etc. to religious and secular holidays and rites. I also can see possible connections between the attributes assigned to gods and goddesses of different cultures possibly through interaction between the cultures in historic and prehistoric times.The remainder of Post 20 is information I have already seen elsewhere and is available rather generically online to everyone, but thank you very much for the refresher; so all in all your closing comment, "You are most welcome," comes off rather punkish. Is this one-upsmanship? I did not intend it that way.Additionally, I don't really see what all this has to do with the God of Shepherds's instructions to strip the Children of Ra of their gold and silver on the Day of Green Barley Harvest to be used 49 days later on the Day of Green Wheat Harvest to construct a Golden Calf while Moses was receiving instructions not to steal or covet.May I suggest we initiate another thread along the lines of "The Interchangable Attributes of Near Eastern Gods and Goddesses" or "Ying and Yang in the Levant."Thank you for your stimulating posts. Peace. May you prosper during the Return Period of the Solar Disk, and ready yourself for the March 17th Planting of the Spuds Festival.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-02-2004]

Quote, from, Versem,Stormdancer,
Thanks for the link you provided.Abashalom, When I said , "You are most welcome."I was being polite saying you are welcome to Versem, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.I have been looking for like minded individuals for a long time to discus this issue with and I intend to discuss it with respect and tolerance towards all view points I want this to be an enjoyable and enlightening experience for everyone.I never liked forum disputes and will leave rather then partake in them....quote,of Abshalom,
May I suggest we initiate another thread along the lines of "The Interchangable Attributes of Near Eastern Gods and Goddesses" or "Ying and Yang in the Levant."That would be wonderful since I am trying to fully understand this topic myself.Since I have not much time today may I post this one last item then we can move it elsewhere later.Peace ..................!"The baal", Hebrew hab-ba`al, does not refer to a single god, Baal, by name, but is a title, specifically, "master, lord." It is sometimes applied to Yhwh, the high god (as in Isa 1:3; and in the onomasticon in the case of Saul's sons Ishbaal and Meribbaal or the judge Jerubbaal -- see Cross 1973:263-264). This is plain in the case of the name b`lyh, one of David's heroes in 1 Chr 12:6: the name should be construed, "Yhwh is my baal," or, with the MT, "Yhwh acts as master/baal". Hosea, moreover, claims that Yhwh instructs Israel, "Call me no more 'My baal'" (2:18), implying that such had indeed been the practice. As a term for "husband", this expression, applied to Yhwh, fathered Hosea's imagery portraying Israel's alleged apostasy as marital infidelity. Hosea's Yhwh, thus, counsels the use of the term 'is, "man," in its placeJupiter - Roman (also known as Jove) - Chief God, son of Kronos.Emblems: Thunderbolt and thunder-cloudZeus - Greek - Chief God, son of Saturn. Became a bull.Emblems: Thunderbolt and lightningBaal - Various Ancient Middle- Eastern Cultures (also known as Hadad in Syria & Adad in Babylon)Chief God or "Lord", son of Dagon or El. Often depicted seated on a bull or calf.Emblems: Storm cloud (chariot), thunder (voice) and lightning (spear)Whilst the myths and characteristics of these gods varied from culture to culture, their status as chief god, their association with bulls, and their emblems (or symbols) of storm cloud, thunder and lightning are common. It is accepted that Jupiter = Zeus and it would seem reasonable to identify them with the same spiritual being as Baal.The Babylonians described Marduk, as JupiterZeus (Jupiter / Jove)"Father of gods and men." He’s a god of battles, a giver of victory (like the earliest vestiges of YHWH), a male thunderstorm god, a northern Aryan sky or mountain god (Greek Zeus and Roman Jupiter derived from same Indo-European word) associated with the thunderboltIn Greece it was called all-highest, mighty Zeus, in Rome Jupiter Optimus, Maximus ; in Babylon it was known as the greatest of the stars ; as Ahuramazda it was called by Darius the greatest of the gods In India Shiva was described as the great ruler and considered the mightiest of all the gods; he was said to be as brilliant as the sun. Everywhere Jupiter was regarded as the greatest deity, greater than the sun, moon, and other planets.Good day

Hi guys,Although this discussion is very interesting it does seem to be drifting away from the topic title.Could we get back on track or open a new thread?AdminBrian.

I agree, I got side tracked while trying to make sense of Jacob and Esau.I tend to do that my thoughts go many different directions simultaneously.I am not off to a very good start I am afraid.Being new I am trying to read to fast and play catch up.Abshalom, would you like to start the new link and explain what you would like to discus, please.Admin, should I delete the post?Thank You.[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-02-2004]

Hi,Don't delete the post, it is very interesting and well worth reading.What you could do is open a new thread where your topic can be discussed and then place a link here to that thread. If you are not sure how to link to a thread I can do it for you until you get the hang of it. (Or Abshalom can help you out)You are off to a very good enough , I can see that you will contribute some excellent posts to future discussions. We all post a few messages now and then that are a little bit off topic, in fact I am probably one of the most frequent offenders!So welcome to the forum and may you have many enjoyable discussions.AdminBrian.