If god can do anything he wants...

God is much more than a mere dictator. A dictator can only control those things within his/her realm. Hitler was a dictator, but Hitler didn't control what was happening in the U.S., did he? Let's not confuse the sovereignty of God with a dictatorship, because a dictatorship has it's limits, "We have been predestinated according to the purpose of Him which worketh EVERYTHING after the counsel of His own will" (Eph.1:11).And of course killing babies and forcing girls into marriage aren't good things, in the realm of time, but in the dispensation of the fulness of times God shall gather together in one ALL things in Christ (Eph.1:10). So there are a lot of things that seem bad, but it's nothing to worry about, because the unconditional love of God can never fail (1Cor.13:8). The mechanism that He works by and through is Love.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy, butI say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (Matt.43-48).And since He is perfect, He can't fail, because He's ALL powerful. Therefore ALL (which includes everyone) shall be restored.

We've both made our points, we just don't agree. Start the new thread and we'll hit the next topic. If I just POINT you somewhere, it will ultimately be a debate and we'll be accused of topic drift. You asked the question, you can start the thread. I don't claim to have the answers; some other folks may. Good discussion will probably ensue.

Fortune 100 company actually, but not the CEO, just a lowly VP (but he's still the boss of his own world in staff meetings). But let's use CEO (I enjoy a promotion once in a while). But don't run too far with this ball, please. If your statement stands as is, then no analogy of any kind could ever be used for anything (that's a mouthful of absolutes ). Analogies can be used to approach a topic from a different angle, making use of similarities, at least in some respects, to "help" make a point, but not for literal use. This is supported by how multiple parables were used by the Prince of Peace himself. That is, unless he desires for people to release their creativity in lively discussion. See, the boss has published ground rules and guidelines that everyone must follow in his staff meetings (since that's the example we used). Similar to a soccer game that has rules and boundaries pre-determined before the game starts. Players can choose to run wide-open toward the goal, as long as they don't run out of bounds or throw punches at opposing players, etc, etc. When the rules are broken, there must be a remedy administered by the official. If you kick the ball out of bounds, the other team gets the ball. If you brutally kick an opposing PLAYER out of bounds, you're likely to get a red card (ejected).
As for the CEO, he encourages creativity and lively discussion, because he wants to ensure the "grapevine" doesn't get pinched, among other reasons. But if that release of "creativity" morphs into fisticuffs, then we have a problem that needs to be dealt with decisively to restore immediate order and encourage future control. The CEO has the power to fire everyone in the room instantly, but then he would no longer have much of an organization. Whew! For a second there I was worried about you! We do indeed have free will, because God bestowed it upon us. He is indeed supreme. True, no doubt. Bestowed upon or ordained, yes. Ohhhp! I take it back; I am worried about you again! We don't agree on that one. We would certainly need to debate Romans 9 over this. But now we are in jeopardy of getting nailed for being off topic! I was once on your side of the argument (about 27 years ago or so) so I'm well versed with both sides. But the main thing I'm concerned with is, did the Counselor pay your debt? If so, I'll see you on the other side. Blessings to you and those around you.

Sweetly stated. I've read it someplace before. Oh yes, I see you gave credit to the author in your post. But I believe the man who spoke those words was convicted as a criminal and executed? He reportedly died in agony and carried an immeasureable amount of guilt and shame. Do you really believe someone with that kind of rap sheet?

I can conclude you don't really know if God is "all powerful" by your "if" statement.Question, did you make your post by your power and option or God's power and option? See above question. Myself, I tend to see more as part of the larger picture of love. I see it more as men choose to be at odds with men and He has to deal with it righteously. You don't know "if" God is "all powerful", therefore it's rather difficult to know his capable methods much less His disires.Do you have a verse where He delights in bloodshed?Gen 9:6

Whoso sheddeth Man's blood , by Man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God he hath made Man.1 Sam 15: 22

And Samuel said, Has Jehovah delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, As in hearkening to the voice of Jehovah? Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, Attention than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is [as] the sin of divination, And selfwill is [as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, He hath also rejected thee from being king. I don't agree, I agree with what Jesus is quoted to of said;Luke 18:19

But Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good ? There is none good but one, God.Can you say Amen?[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 02-09-2004]

Nice post. But the caveat to posting in this manner is that it's very difficult to debate the majority of this crowd on Biblical terms. The crux of the whole Darwinian evolution debate was stated many years ago by a Darwinian evolutionist: This was written by Sir Arthur Keith in the foreword to the 100th anniversary edition of the "Origin of Species" in 1959.The point is NOT whether evolution is provable or not. The point IS that they just don't want to believe in a supreme being. This statement, of course, does not include theistic evolutionists (different thread!) Of course, the above statement from Sir Arthur was cleverly crafted to blunt the embarassment and frustration with the fossil record, but the statement turned out to be a strategic error. (can't wait for someone to ask me to elaborate on that!) Since then, well, I won't repeat all the pro-evolution arguments that continue to be posted to this web-site. Stephen J. Gould and his punctuated equilibrium, and...
Oh, you can read them on your own.II Peter 3:3-4

Im sorry, but I truely find this puzzling. Perhapse it's because I am not a beliver, but I find the logic of this statement severely lacking!How on earth can love be brought from acts of hatred, violence, and atrocity? Did god flood the world and kill us all out of love? Did he kill those babies out of love?I would love to know how commanding forced labor, infantaside, and rape (forced marrige, whatever you want to call it), can ever resolve it'self as an act of love.Further, I find your next quote even more puzzling: These are chrit's words, this does not reflect God's behavior, or doctrain in the OT. And please don't feighn ignorance, we have all read Leviticus, Numbers, etc. We know that god commanded much bloodshed, intolerance, hatred, etc.I would agree that christ was a briliant philospher, but the god he talks about, often seems diametricaly opposed to the god of the OT.If we are going by the OT's example, I would love some OT quotes dealing with that gods love, forgivness, compassion, and, more importantly, some of his statements concerning the same sort of tolerance jesus asks that we exercise in your above verse.Were jesus may preach tolerance and love, the god of the OT is deffinetly in the relm of intolarnce, cruelty, and hate.

Peter,I have gone up and down these arguments adnauseum, and I really am only adressing two points in this thread. Those adressed in message 26.If you would like to discuse these I would be happy to.However, if you are truely interested in what I have to say about the issues you just raised, I would ask that you review a similar discussion I had with roboto85 in this thread:http://EvC Forum: What if Jesus and Satan were real? -->EvC Forum: What if Jesus and Satan were real?Please post replies in there, and I would be happy to discuss any further issues you may have.

You asked three questions. I'll hit all three to make sure I get the right ones. Soljafolife addresses this in post #33, so I'll leave that as is. He doesn't, my friend. The things you mention were conjured up by the "father of lies" himself. He convinced us to join forces with him, promising us the kingdoms of the earth. Instead, he deceived us and turned us against each other in exceedingly evil ways. God must hold us accountable for our actions, or he would not be a just God. Is a criminal judge wrong to send a murderer to his punishment? Would it be better for the judge to just release the murderer back onto the streets? How would that be fair to those who obey the laws? But the next question is, "why does God allow Satan to get away with his evil?" I think that should be taken to a different topic/thread because it is indeed huge. I challenged crashfron to start the topic since he asked the question first.But Satans' crown jewel performance, was to make it look like God designed those things that you mentioned above. Same basic answer.Question for you: Can you show me where God delights in doing harm to the ones that he made in his own image?

I'm disinclined to do so, for two reasons:1) I've done so about three or four times already, and all of those old topics seem perfectly valid, still;
2) Every time I've started a new topic and pointed out the location, the other participant fails to join in. I fail to see how that could be the case. Nonetheless I'll point you to one of my old topics that is probably still appropriate for the problem of evil: EvC Forum: God and Good ParentingWhile the opening post is phrased as a response to a comment about "good parenting", you should be able to see it as a thinly veiled attempt to ask "why does a benevolent, all-powerful God allow evil to cause suffering and harm in this world?" We sort of got sidetracked on whether or not the Tree of Knowledge caused sin, or merely was the impetus. Read the thread if you like, but feel free to resume the original topic.

quote:

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Tokyojim,
First off, greetings from the land of the rising sun! I have always wanted to go to Tokyo.

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I know I said I wouldn't answer anyone who didn't directly answer the last two questions, but I did note that you put considerable amount of time and thought in to your post, so I would definetly honer your efforts with a reply, and a hope that perhaps we may have a fruitful discussion.

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TJ replies:Yaro, thanks for your reply - I think. I guess I was pretty sure that you would reply even though you said you wouldn't. To be honest, I don't have time to get involved in a long discussion. I still have to reply to a post from way back in December in one of the Free for all discussions on the Marriage Amendment that I still haven't gotten to. But you replied to me so it would be impolite not to reply back. Let me think about it a little and I will get back to you. Just not sure when. I've got two small kids, a wife, and a busy schedule here in Japan and my family and other responsibilities have to take priority, so forgive me if my response is not timely. Thanks.Regards,TJ[This message has been edited by Tokyojim, 02-09-2004]

http://EvC Forum: If god can do anything he wants... -->EvC Forum: If god can do anything he wants...*BUMP*TJ, I have seen you around lately. Just bumping to remind you that I did reply to your last post in this thread, and you have yet to respond to mine. I would really apreciate it as I worked hard on my reply.If anyone else would like to engage me on this post, feel free to do so as I belive it would lead to a fruitfull discussion.

I do not believe you demonstrated this statement in your initial post:"Yet it was his desire, to shed as much blood as possible."For example, God used bees to help drive out some people from the Promised Land. Also, some people were given time and were not judged immediately but eventually they were judged. Rahab the harlot was spared. Ninevah repented and was spared.I also do not think you are considering that sometimes the loss of life can be justified. If people abuse the lives they are given God as the giver of life can take it away. Death eventually will take all our lives away and so it is just a matter of timing.I think you have to consider that the messiah came from the Jews and that God wanted to preserve the Jewish race.Lastly, God has certainly suffered violence in the person of Jesus Christ so he has not immuned Himself from the effects of violence.

YARO...GREAT TOPIC...I'M WITH YOU AND I HAVE TO SHARE THE STORY AS TO WHY...WARNING...IF YOU ARE A DYED IN THE WOOL BELIEVER THE FOLLOWING THOUGHTS MAY ROCK YOUR BOAT. [IP-COPYWRIGHT (DNC-1966]"My dad died when I was four...I gave my life to god when I was 5 years old and desired nothing more in life that to be like Jesus so I could get the ultimate reward...a pass to heaven to be with my dad. I accepted everything I was told until I hit adolescence. At age 12, I took particular attention to the story of how the "devil" "source of all evil" and God's nemesis came to be. Summary, Lucifer was an elite angel, in heaven, highly valued by god until...one fateful day in time...the angel became dissatisfied with his existence in heaven and god's control of everything. So what's god do to handle this rebellious angel. KICK his butt out....make him the source of all evil, temptation, horror etc so that God and he can play a little tug of war on all of god's human creations for a long time until...Kazaam...the day comes when god comes back down (unannouced) and gathers his team-mates...forever tormenting/condemning all on any other team and thoroughly thrashing that DEVIL kiester. Now that is a summary but in my serious naivitae ... I thought...oh...no! Why did the angel who had what I want, who was there already...in heaven turn against god because he wasn't happy. What if I get there and am not happy either? Now, my whole world was spinning...the angel knew god...personally...YET! decided to buck his system and supposedly was cast out to play this eternal game.In my total innocence I expressed in question form "Why would god do this? I could do better than that!"
I know longer felt I could worship a god...less godly than I. The elders of the church chastised me for my sacreligious doubt and insistent questioning. Instead of realizing a 12 year old had asked a "higher" level question they took it upon themselves to beat my "glutes" beyond belief. I'll never forget that "violence enacted upon me in the name of 'GOD'!" [End Copywright-DNC-1966]I'm so tired of believers throwing the Bible out as the "ultimate" truth. All the proof they would ever need about the ungodliness of their god is in their own book...if they believe it then they need to truly accept many things...ie let's look at what "god hates".Things God hates--1. a proud look, (I'm sure god possesses this)2. a lying tongue, and (seems to me saying you hate shedding
innocent blood then killing your son...makes you a liar)3. hands that shed innocent blood, (yet he demanded it...several
times)4. a heart that plots evil plans, (I'd say creating a "devil" is
evil plans)5. feet hurrying to run to mischief, (I'd say trading a battle
victory for the life of the victor's little girl qualifies
here) Bad, Bad God!6. a false witness who breathes lies, and (Duh!)7. he who causes strife among brothers.(Crusades?, Catholicism?
KKK? etc.)8. certain people, (Why this? thought We were all his creatures!))9. false religion (Like his own?)10. God makes it very clear: remarriage after divorce results inadultery. And adultery defiles a person.And marrying a defiled person is something God hates.(Come on that's a jealous, abusive controling, insecure man)11. A stone and a stone, (long story...leads to Better Business
Bureau)12. an ephah and an ephah, both [are] hateful to Jehovah.(SAO)13. the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(I think they were peaceful, non-violent-- good "salt of the
earth" type people doing as they claim god instructed them to
do...not deserving of hate? Probably deserving...for they
continued the idea that Religious leadership is "us or them"
(not "all of us")14. things highly prized among men (so much to hate here...poor God)EVEN JESUS...got caught up in "hatred"
The lost Israelites considered the Pharisees to be the holiest of the holy because they were zealous in their religion and even went over and above the call of religious duty. And they were outwardly the most moral people around. They were highly esteemed.But Jesus Christ said that these things were hateful to God. Why? It's because they didn't believe in Christ's words/works (even though they were right there at that time)My Last Response: The proof is there if you want to see it. It appears that (if we believe in the Bible as truthful) that god is not a pure, just, merciful, loving, caring for each individual type of god. Therefore those who espouse this are using a false religion. God hates that!Don't forget...god is a god that came from a chosen people...How did this happen? Why were they chosen and then forsaken, too?IS GOD THE GREAT LOVING GOD?...... NO, god (as depicted in the book of truth) is HATEFUL and... he should hate just about everyone on earth (and himself too), because almost every one has done something he hates.(including himself) If he truly loved all his creations...he would have kept Lucifer in some far reaches of the Universe and not allowed the whole thing to happen down here!For me, I still hope that if god is as we want him to be, that he once again shows himself, sets the record straight, and in some manner or mysterious ways and brings heaven and earth close together. It's time for this to end! No...now I beseech the...I demandesth thou makest it RIGHT!Thanks for your inspiration and kindred thoughts!(I think,believe, hope,express without guilt)N-lighter

heheheh...Wow there N-lighter That was quite an empassioned rant Since you are new to this board let me just warn you that YEC, or Christian, bashing is not the purpose of this board. Critical discusion of Evo vs. Creo and other religios topics are.I do however agree with you on many points, be carefull you don't trigger another round of "if there was no devil there would be no free will" crap.Anyhooo....Welcome to the board!