Is the Bible the Word of God II?

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"At this time Adam, Eve and Cain should have been the only humans on earth (Abel was slain by Cain). So where did Cain's wife come from? God does not explain that he made more humans. Did he leave this part out? If so, why?"
--They Simply do not mention other people that were born, as you can see it is perfectly compatable, and also if this is a real problem, than there would only be a couple hundred people by the time of Noah. The bible simply does not mention Cain's wife.

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Exactly the point.There are NOT enough people in existence in Genesis for the
populations that are implied in later chapters.Whether they are mentioned or not, where did they come from ?How old was Cain when he killed Abel and left his mother and
father for the Land of Nod ?Seth was born when Adam was 130, and this appears to be
just after Abel's murder. We are not told how old Adam
was when Cain and Abel were born.Not mentioning other people that were born is insufficient.
Everyone else (even the genealogy of Cain) is mentioned ... so
why leave some out?I can see that this discussion is not going anywhere if we
get stuck on the detail.The conclusion is that the Bible does NOT tell us everything
that happened in those early days.If it omits that, what else is omitted, abridged, or glossed
over ?It IS an inconsistency because it is NOT explained in the Bible.Your assertion that it was just not mentioned, leads me to
wonder why you reject evolution. After all we just haven't
found all the evidence yet.

This Adam and Eve thing raises a biggie for me... What were the mutations that resulted from incest (other than life span)? Current mutations involve extra limbs, eyes, etc. Did they look like giant snakes? How did different skin colors come to be? The only explanation is evolution.And a few new ones...
-If God is all forgiving, why is there a hell at all?
-If heaven is so good, why not just kill yourself?
-Doesn't killing animals for food constitute a violation of the First Commandment (i might be wrong on this, the one that says 'Thou shalt not kill')
-Even in the Bible there is alot of killing (Cain killing Abel, etc.). Again, violation of the 1st Command.?Could God have rather created the first ameobas and let us evolve? Could aliens have planted life on Earth ()?Science has failed to provide a reasonable explination to how life started...

"Adam and Eve thing raises a biggie for me... What were the mutations that resulted from incest (other than life span)? Current mutations involve extra limbs, eyes, etc. Did they look like giant snakes?"
--I don't see what your implying and how is it relevant?"How did different skin colors come to be?"
--Basic population genetics, and of course a good dose of mutation and natural selection."The only explanation is evolution."
--Yup, I guess so! After all, evolution does mean 'change' right? Please run this past me once more, how does this falsify anything in Creationism?"-If God is all forgiving, why is there a hell at all?"
--Hell was created for Satan and his angels."If heaven is so good, why not just kill yourself?"
--Because God gave you existance so that you would have a life, and that life to serve the lord, if you wish to not have faith in God, then yes, kill yourself, though you will not enter the kingdom of heaven out of such selfishness, this is simply what suicide is."-Doesn't killing animals for food constitute a violation of the First Commandment (i might be wrong on this, the one that says 'Thou shalt not kill')"
--The problem is that this is out of context."-Even in the Bible there is alot of killing (Cain killing Abel, etc.). Again, violation of the 1st Command.?"
--Correct, it is a voilation, were not all perfect, if we were, the commandments would not be violated."Could God have rather created the first ameobas and let us evolve?"
--If you wish to believe that, sure go ahead, though God said it was 6 days of creation and a 7th day of rest, unless you wan't evolution to pick up the pace, I would rather just take its word for it."Could aliens have planted life on Earth ()?"
--If you wish to believe that, go ahead, but you definantly would have to have alot more faith than I have to do so."Science has failed to provide a reasonable explination to how life started..."
--I guess so.------------------

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"-Doesn't killing animals for food constitute a violation of the First Commandment (i might be wrong on this, the one that says 'Thou shalt not kill')"
--The problem is that this is out of context.

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ah, but is it really too hard to believe that though animals may not have complex thoughts, that they are also living beings that are self-aware? I don't suppose you've watched a show called 'The Outer Limits'. I don't watch it often, but when I do catch it, I'd watch it over anything. Anyways, my point is that some of the stories they tell make you think about the 'because humans are superior to animals' thing if you apply some of the morals they present. I'm a vegetarian myself, and my personal belief is that "They didn't harm me, let alone kill me, why should I kill them?" There's also the proverb, "Do unto others as others would do unto you." (He he, cows going super-intelligent and superstrong wasting the enitre human civilization is a funny picture, but that's not gonna happen. What I mean by bring up teh proverb is that it'll come back to you in some other way)Besides, what's so great about eating flesh? Vegetarians live 33% longer lives (that's if you want to live a long life), remain healthier, and the list goes on. And the 'lack of protein' is a fable. 40% of a soya bean is protein compared to eggs (17%), and beef (<10%). On average, beans are just less than 30% protein so eating 1.5lbs of beans give you just as much as 5lbs of beef (this is before cooking the beef, you lose about 1-5% of it depending on how you cook it). AND, I don't need to worry about animal borne diseases.

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"If heaven is so good, why not just kill yourself?"
--Because God gave you existance so that you would have a life, and that life to serve the lord, if you wish to not have faith in God, then yes, kill yourself, though you will not enter the kingdom of heaven out of such selfishness, this is simply what suicide is.

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Then where would you goto? Like I already asked before isn't God all-forgiving?

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"The only explanation is evolution."
--Yup, I guess so! After all, evolution does mean 'change' right? Please run this past me once more, how does this falsify anything in Creationism?

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I'm not trying to falsify creationsim, in fact I believe in creationism since there is no theory on how life started. I just don't believe the story that the Bible gives

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"Adam and Eve thing raises a biggie for me... What were the mutations that resulted from incest (other than life span)? Current mutations involve extra limbs, eyes, etc. Did they look like giant snakes?"
--I don't see what your implying and how is it relevant?

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I'm not implying anything, just something to peak the imagination.

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[This message has been edited by Hieyeck, 04-02-2002]

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Originally posted by Hieyeck:
Besides, what's so great about eating flesh? Vegetarians live 33% longer lives (that's if you want to live a long life), remain healthier, and the list goes on. And the 'lack of protein' is a fable. 40% of a soya bean is protein compared to eggs (17%), and beef (<10%). On average,beans are just less than 30% protein so eating 1.5lbs of beans give you just as much as 5lbs of beef (this is before cooking the beef, you lose about 1-5% of it depending on how you cook it). AND, I don't need to worry about animal borne diseases.

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I`ve tried eating veggy food in the past but it tastes... well like there is something missing really, I just couldn`t get used to it so I went back to eating meat....Call me fussy but I like to enjoy eating my food and veggy just did not do it for me....Incidentaly I would agree that western society as a whole consumes far to much meat I probably do myself....As for the animal borne diseases thing thats a bit of an overstatement, sure things like KJD from eating BSE infected meat will be avoided but you still have to watch out for rabid squirels for example (this is no joke there was a rabid squirel out on the road where I live last year attacking everything in sight...)Oh and as for the veggies live 33% longer does that mean you include fish as a vegetable? Just the Japaneese have the highest average life expectancy mainly attributed to their staple diet of fish and rice....(of course it would be higher still if they didn`t eat a carcinogenic fern as a delicacy)

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[This message has been edited by joz, 04-03-2002]

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Originally posted by joz:
Oh and as for the veggies live 33% longer ...

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They don't. It just seems longer.

fish has flesh, therefore fish = meat.
why do somemany people consider fish vegetarian?Yeah some of the synth meat taste like feces. However, if you buy some Chinese vegetarian food, they taste much better. Try a Chinese vegetarian or a Buddhist restaurant. I'm not a pure vegetarian (vegan) myself, i drink milk and eat eggs once in a while (from pasta, bread, flapjacks, etc.)and as for living 33% longer, they do (on average of course). Chinese had a very long life span about 750 years ago. They lived to about 60-70, barring war of course. This was because meat was a luxury in old China (too much grain to raise a cow, etc.), so they only ate it on New Year's. (Pork was a bit more common, cuz pigs ate all the leftovers .)

I don't know who posted these questions, but I will try to answer them."Adam and Eve thing raises a biggie for me... What were the mutations that resulted from incest (other than life span)? Current mutations involve extra limbs, eyes, etc. Did they look like giant snakes?"Do you look like a giant snake? (Maybe you do.) When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then. Our DNA today is full of mutations. Not GOOD ONES as most atheists believe. No you're not evolving, but DEVOLVING due to entropy."How did different skin colors come to be?"It was ALL in Adams genes. Did you ever see a black haired child born to 2 BLONDE parents. It may have been from a grandparent (the genes are far more vast than only those which are passed on)."The only explanation is evolution."Order doesn't come by itself without outside influence."-If God is all forgiving, why is there a hell at all?"Because he is also a just God. If he says that he will punish the wicked, then he will punish the wicked. You have a simple choice to avoid Hell. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved."-Doesn't killing animals for food constitute a violation of the First Commandment (i might be wrong on this, the one that says 'Thou shalt not kill')"This is the common cry of Animal rights activists, but most of the same activists think nothing of murdering a child in the womb."-Even in the Bible there is alot of killing (Cain killing Abel, etc.). Again, violation of the 1st Command.?"Just because your newspaper will record murders and crime, it doesn't mean that it condones it. The Bible records this case of Cain killing Abel. It doesn't condone it. (I'm getting the feeling that these questions are being posted with no knowledge whatsoever. Will this person even be back to read the replies?)"Could God have rather created the first ameobas and let us evolve?"We'll throw a bunch of car parts out and tell me 10 million years from now if they assemble themselves together."Science has failed to provide a reasonable explination to how life started..."I agree."Could aliens have planted life on Earth ()?"There is no real proof of ET. It take a FAITH to believe such nonsense.Dan http://etnot.com

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Originally posted by techristian:
When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then.

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Evidence please? Thanks in advance.[b] [QUOTE]No you're not evolving, but DEVOLVING due to entropy.[/b][/QUOTE]Well, obviously individuals do not evolve in the post-Darwinian sense. What do you mean by "devolving?" What evidence do you have for it?[b] [QUOTE]"How did different skin colors come to be?"It was ALL in Adams genes.[/b][/QUOTE]Evidence agin please? Thanks.
[b] [QUOTE]Did you ever see a black haired child born to 2 BLONDE parents. It may have been from a grandparent (the genes are far more vast than only those which are passed on).[/b][/QUOTE]So what did Adam look like? To put it genetically, as you seem to be fond of the subject, which genes were dominant and recessive? Take a simple example - the one we are discussing - what colour was Adam's skin?[b] [QUOTE]Order doesn't come by itself without outside influence.[/b][/QUOTE]Why do you say that? Can you explain?[b] [QUOTE]"-If God is all forgiving, why is there a hell at all?"Because he is also a just God. If he says that he will punish the wicked, then he will punish the wicked. You have a simple choice to avoid Hell. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.[/b][/QUOTE]Why does she say she will punish the wicked? Why does not she not directly intervene to set them on the path to goodness?How does one choose to believe? If one chooses to believe in something without sufficient evidence to prove it, how can one know one is making the right choice? For example, if I choose to believe in the inerrancy of the Koran, would I be judged wrong for that? If I chose to believe in the truth of the Bhagavad Gita, would I be judged wrong?
[b] [QUOTE]"-Doesn't killing animals for food constitute a violation of the First Commandment (i might be wrong on this, the one that says 'Thou shalt not kill')"This is the common cry of Animal rights activists, but most of the same activists think nothing of murdering a child in the womb.[/b][/QUOTE]Evidence for this assertion? Thanks.[b] [QUOTE]Just because your newspaper will record murders and crime, it doesn't mean that it condones it. The Bible records this case of Cain killing Abel. It doesn't condone it. (I'm getting the feeling that these questions are being posted with no knowledge whatsoever. Will this person even be back to read the replies?)[/b][/QUOTE]I have read the replies, I have some Bible knowledge, and I do hope you will respond to me.There are of course many places where the Bible does condone killing, indeed encourages it.Deuteronomy 20:13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:Deuteronomy 7:2And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto themThis is exactly the point that was being made - that the Bible is full of this stuff. Comments? Thanks.
[b] [QUOTE]"Could God have rather created the first ameobas and let us evolve?"We'll throw a bunch of car parts out and tell me 10 million years from now if they assemble themselves together.[/b][/QUOTE]Perhaps if they were thrown out by being of infinite power, wisdom and foresight? Or is your God not up to setting evolution in motion?

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Originally posted by Hieyeck:
fish has flesh, therefore fish = meat.
why do somemany people consider fish vegetarian?

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Yeah some of the synth meat taste like feces. However, if you buy some Chinese vegetarian food, they taste much better. Try a Chinese vegetarian or a Buddhist restaurant. I'm not a pure vegetarian (vegan) myself, i drink milk and eat eggs once in a while (from pasta, bread, flapjacks, etc.)

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and as for living 33% longer, they do (on average of course). Chinese had a very long life span about 750 years ago. They lived to about 60-70, barring war of course. This was because meat was a luxury in old China (too much grain to raise a cow, etc.), so they only ate it on New Year's. (Pork was a bit more common, cuz pigs ate all the leftovers .)

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I don't really think that the longer life span can be attributed to diet alone. Life was also a great deal less stressful back then, people led much more physically-active lives, and people probably didn't chain-smoke Marlboros like they do today, either.The vegan diet has some problems, nutritionally. Vegans have a difficult time getting enough B vitamins, and in specific, I think it is B12 that many vegans are chronically deficint in.Also, if you know how to cook, and use high-quality ingredients, a vegetarian diet need not be boring at all. Most of the Mediterranean cuisines de-emphasize meat and that area is known for some of the best food in the world.

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Originally posted by techristian:
1)a)Do you look like a giant snake? (Maybe you do.) b)When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then. Our DNA today is full of mutations. c)Not GOOD ONES as most atheists believe. No you're not evolving, but DEVOLVING due to entropy.

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2)It was ALL in Adams genes. Did you ever see a black haired child born to 2 BLONDE parents. It may have been from a grandparent (the genes are far more vast than only those which are passed on).

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3)Order doesn't come by itself without outside influence.

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4)Because he is also a just God. If he says that he will punish the wicked, then he will punish the wicked. You have a simple choice to avoid Hell. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

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5)This is the common cry of Animal rights activists, but most of the same activists think nothing of murdering a child in the womb.

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6)We'll throw a bunch of car parts out and tell me 10 million years from now if they assemble themselves together.

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7)There is no real proof of ET. It take a FAITH to believe such nonsense.

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1)a)Actually I look a lot like hairless ape, just like you do....b)Really, how do you know? Where is the sample of patriarch DNA that you tested? What makes you think that there is a perfect DNA? what stops a random mutation being beneficial (yes they do happen ask Schraf about her missing wisdom teeth) and improving the "perfect" DNA?c)Individuals evolving would be Lamarckism not evolution in its modern sense... Also the claim of devolution rather than evolution requires there to be no natural selection, are you arguing that in the past survival of the fittest played no role?(Incidently my personal opinion is that modern man IS devolving as social constructs, the welfare state etc, remove selection mechanisms (not that I think the welfare state is a bad thing merely that it is potentialy problematic geneticaly), this is completely unrelated to the creationist arguments that all mutation reduces function...)2)So whens your study coming out? you know the analysis of actual DNA samples that show we all have a common ancestor X (where X is of the order of 10) thousand years ago. After all if we are all directly descended from A and E it should be easy to demonstrate....Unless there has been some sort of hyperevolutionary stage that the bible makes no mention of....3)Ever watched a crystal grow?4)So what if you are wicked AND you believe in JC?Your comment implies that the worst child torturing, father killing mowing the lawn on a sunday sinner can play a get out of hell free card by CHOOSING to believe...Before we get into the whole moral justification for sending good people who don`t believe to hell and admiting real evil believers to heaven how about you explain precisely why you think belief is a matter of choice (I hold that it is non elective BTW)....5)Irrelevant, does the first commandment cover all life, all animal life, all humans, all humans except violent criminals or just all humans that your God hasn`t expressly told you to wage war upon killing their children salting their fields and enslaving their women?6)Flawed analogy car parts do not breed or self replicate, do not mutate randomly and are not naturally selected.....Also no one is arguing that a lung, brain and intestine suddenly popped into existence and sat around for a few millenia "evolving" into a man, which is the only scenario your analogy would be relevant to....7)Apart from the probabilistic argument there is no evidence for sentient E.T`s however this does not show that there are none anywhere in the universe...

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Also, if you know how to cook, and use high-quality ingredients, a vegetarian diet need not be boring at all. Most of the Mediterranean cuisines de-emphasize meat and that area is known for some of the best food in the world.

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Yeah I like Greek , Turkish and Armenian food Itallian doesn`t do it for me but Spanish is good (I cook a mean Paella) personally I prefer curries from Sri lanka, Bangladesh etc (I cook an even meaner Do piazza) the problem really isn`t lack of ability to cook, its not like I tried veggy food by gnawing on a raw potato, its just that the food seems insipid and "missing something" when I completely exclude meat...I try to use as little as possible and in fact a very small portion solves the problem I just don`t enjoy eating veggy food....

I not denying that you need more than just a diet, but i'm not gonna argue THIS anymore. It should belong in the coffee house.Have you noticed how Christianity keeps on moving the goalpoasts?Anyways
1. FOR THE SECOND TIME, ITS JUST TO PEAK THE IMAGINATION. GEEZ-US (har har har).2. The Bible claims that Adam is the first male. therefore, he had no grandparents. PERIOD. and if he had all those genes, the current human DNA won't be able to hold all the information. This would mean that we are negatively evolving (there is no such thing as devolving, as there is no decceleration - basic physics, if you don't know go back to school)3. When did I say anything about order? In fact the only order there can be is a 0 degrees kelvin.4. wow. i'm being preached to. could it strike you that I know that Christianity is a holey religion? (pun intended)5. As a matter of fact i oppose abortion to. i oppose all destruction of life. i know i said i eat eggs, but those are unfertilized eggs and are therefore not living.6. [sarcasm]Enlighten me.[/sarcasm] I'm not Christian. Sue me.(I get the feeling that we're getting preached to. Will this person stop the preaching?)7. [sarcasm] Yeah it'll oxidize. Also they will assemble themselves. There is a common force called gravity (this force is not a manipulation of God..). Maybe not correctly, but it'll still assemble. [/sarcasm] Teh key to evolution is change in the DNA. car parts do not have DNA. (I'm getting the feeling that these questions are being posted with no knowledge whatsoever. Will this person WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SCIENTIFIC COFFEE? [yeah yeah i know its morning])8. no comment9. WTF OMG(hm... lol) BBQ MPH BTU AMU! Yes there is proof of life. meteor from mars. fossilized primitive organisms. Ever watch "Mission to Mars"? great movie. neways, maybe not from Mars, but my point is the basic idea of life being planeted. (the fossils from mars bore a resembalance to fossils on Earth. if the planting thing is true, could mars have also been seeded?) Could Earth be a computer to question the ultimate question? heh heh heh, Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy is hilarious.

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There is no real proof of ET. It take a FAITH to believe such nonsense.

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There is no real proof of GOD. It take a FAITH to believe such nonsense.

When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then.
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Evidence please? Thanks in advance.

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b)When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then.
b)Really, how do you know? Where is the sample of patriarch DNA that you tested? What makes you think that there is a perfect DNA? what stops a random mutation being beneficial (yes they do happen ask Schraf about her missing wisdom teeth) and improving the "perfect" DNA?

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Ok I should choose my words more carefully. Since the majority here are trying to use science to disprove the bible, I have only presented a scientific POSSIBILITY which would work. How can you prove that Adam WASN'T created with perfect DNA?

Because he is also a just God. If he says that he will punish the wicked, then he will punish the wicked. You have a simple choice to avoid Hell. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

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Why does she say she will punish the wicked? Why does not she not directly intervene to set them on the path to goodness?Have you ever worked with a ROBOT? I work in an auto factory and see robots every day. They do just exactly what we tell them to do and that makes them very boring companions. God created man with FREE WILL. You have the choice. Use it wisely.

There are of course many places where the Bible does condone killing, indeed encourages it.
Yes there are, but the example of Cane and Abel was the example used by the original person posting the question. I cases where people were considered UTTERLY EVIL, God not only condoned the killing of the EVILDOERS, but their entire families also. We do not understand everything from this earthly perspective. In the eternal perspective, however, the young children and innocents killed this way may have gone directly to Heaven rather than grow up like their evil parents and go to Hell for eternal suffering. This would have also saved others who would have been influenced by the evil practices of Idolatry etc. Many of these civilizations even sacrificed their own children to satisfy their false Gods.
6)Flawed analogy car parts do not breed or self replicate, do not mutate randomly and are not naturally selected.....
Also no one is arguing that a lung, brain and intestine suddenly popped into existence and sat around for a few millenia "evolving" into a man, which is the only scenario your analogy would be relevant to....
You have dug yourself you own hole to fall in here. That is precisely why evolution couldn't work. For a living organism to live, grow and reproduce, it must have at least 3 systems is place SIMULTANEOUSLY.1) The organism must have developed a simple RESPIRATORY SYSTEM. (be able to breath)
2) The organism must have developed a simple DIGESTIVE SYSTEM. (TO EAT)
3) In order to pass on this to the next generation, the organism must have a simple REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. (to multiply)Now because I call each of these "simple systems", there are by no means simple, because even the simplest single cell animal is made up of THOUSANDS OF MOLECULES.That is why scientists have almost totally abandoned Dawinian evolution. Darwin was not a scientist but an atheist who sought to justify his evil by trying to explain away God. Anyone who has ever looked through a modern day microscope will tell you that the "single cell" organism of Darwinism is infinitely more complex.

techristian:

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When Adam was first created his DNA was perfect there was no incest back then.

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Are you completely certain about this statement? Beside the fact that you haven't defined what "perfect" DNA would be (i.e., does this mean there were no introns, etc and that all DNA base pairs coded for proteins? Does this also apply to RNA?), there's also the question of the origin of Eve. If the Genesis account is correct and Eve was made from some part of Adam (parthenogenesis or cloning?), then they would be even closer than brother and sister - they would be as close if not closer in consanguinity than identical twins. This implies that, in order to "begat" Cain and Able, Adam and Eve must have committed incest by definition since they were genetically identical, unless there was somebody else in the Garden that the Bible doesn't mention.How to resolve this conundrum?

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[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 04-05-2002]