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Author Topic:   To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 869 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 61 of 78 (338793)
08-09-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by oblivionlord
08-09-2006 6:24 PM


Thanks for nothing
I was joking and then I was defending you.

Stay focused.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by oblivionlord, posted 08-09-2006 6:24 PM oblivionlord has not yet responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 78 (338799)
08-09-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by oblivionlord
08-09-2006 6:24 PM


just a polite suggestion
Looking over posts from someone claiming to be oblivionlord on other forums, I wish to point out that we do not tolerate the behavior seen in those other forums.

At the end of this message you will find links to several threads that may help make your stay here more enjoyable. Please read them over.


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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by oblivionlord, posted 08-09-2006 6:24 PM oblivionlord has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16681
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 63 of 78 (338804)
    08-09-2006 6:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Parasomnium
    08-09-2006 6:18 PM


    parasomnium writes:

    Jocularity aside, that's not a very nice way to welcome someone in our midst, is it? Give them a chance!

    I used a smilie, didn't I? :) You should see how I treat people I don't like.


    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Parasomnium, posted 08-09-2006 6:18 PM Parasomnium has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 08-09-2006 6:48 PM ringo has responded
     Message 66 by Parasomnium, posted 08-09-2006 6:59 PM ringo has not yet responded

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 64 of 78 (338805)
    08-09-2006 6:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
    08-09-2006 6:47 PM


    I used a smilie, didn't I?

    You use a smilie to excuse your insults.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by ringo, posted 08-09-2006 6:47 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by ringo, posted 08-09-2006 6:54 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16681
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 65 of 78 (338810)
    08-09-2006 6:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 64 by robinrohan
    08-09-2006 6:48 PM


    robinrohan writes:

    You use a smilie to excuse your insults.

    Well, there goes the best-kept secret on the Internet. :)


    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 08-09-2006 6:48 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

      
    Parasomnium
    Member (Idle past 869 days)
    Posts: 2191
    Joined: 07-15-2003


    Message 66 of 78 (338811)
    08-09-2006 6:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
    08-09-2006 6:47 PM


    Show me
    You should see how I treat people I don't like.

    Make my day, punk.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by ringo, posted 08-09-2006 6:47 PM ringo has not yet responded

      
    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 67 of 78 (338816)
    08-09-2006 7:09 PM


    Topic Folk
    please


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  •   
    oblivionlord
    Inactive Member


    Message 68 of 78 (338834)
    08-09-2006 8:54 PM


    Violation of ones privacy outside of this forum is also on your list of conduct for rules AdminJar?
    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 08-10-2006 6:03 AM oblivionlord has not yet responded

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1630 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 69 of 78 (338877)
    08-10-2006 6:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by oblivionlord
    08-09-2006 8:54 PM


    Address the Topic
    Welcome to my thread oblivionlord.

    If you have problems with what AdminJar has said, please discuss it with him in the the Moderation Thread, not in my thread.

    If you are interested in reviving this thread, please make sure your posts keep in line with the topic of this thread as described in Message 1.

    Thanks and welcome to EvC.


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by oblivionlord, posted 08-09-2006 8:54 PM oblivionlord has not yet responded

      
    oblivionlord
    Inactive Member


    Message 70 of 78 (338941)
    08-10-2006 11:51 AM


    I find it interesting that you want for me to take my conversation about the moderation of this forum to a diffrent thread when all I've done is reply to a comment initiated by someone who should be following the forum rules already.

    AdminJar
    If you want to explain the guidelines of this forum perhaps next time you can show some respect by prvt messging the user instead of going off topic yourself and defying your own guidlines.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-10-2006 12:44 PM oblivionlord has not yet responded
     Message 72 by AdminPD, posted 08-10-2006 12:48 PM oblivionlord has not yet responded

      
    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 475 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 71 of 78 (338959)
    08-10-2006 12:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 70 by oblivionlord
    08-10-2006 11:51 AM


    oblivionlord,

    Eight posts and I see a high percentage of OT posts, complaints, and refusal to abide by moderator suggestion. I would attribute much of this to new member ignorance but most new members, when approached by admins are more than happy to comply.

    To show that we are serious about our administrator suggestions, I have removed your posting rights from all fora except for the Suggestions and Questions Forum....the forum you were asked to take any moderation issues to.

    I have also left you the option of posting to the Proposed New Topics forum to see if there is a topic you would like to discuss in its proper place.

    Please take any questions or complaints to the APPROPRIATE thread listed in my signature box.


    AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by oblivionlord, posted 08-10-2006 11:51 AM oblivionlord has not yet responded

        
    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 72 of 78 (338962)
    08-10-2006 12:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 70 by oblivionlord
    08-10-2006 11:51 AM


    Off Topic Warning
    Oblivionlord,

    If you have a problem with the moderation on this board, please take it to the Moderation Thread as requested.

    Any further comments concerning moderation in this thread will result in a 24 hour timeout.


    Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

    Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
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    Helpful links for New Members:
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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by oblivionlord, posted 08-10-2006 11:51 AM oblivionlord has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5692
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 73 of 78 (339095)
    08-10-2006 9:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
    03-26-2005 10:36 AM


    The completeness of faith
    When we refer to "believing in" living individuals we aren't saying that we believe they exist.

    For example, when I say I believe in my husband, I'm not saying I believe he exists. I'm saying I am confident that he is capable of accomplishing a certain task or situation at hand.

    If I believe in a politician's foreign policy, I'm not saying I believe it exists, but that I trust what the policy says.

    I think we can extend this meaning of belief and attribute it to faith. Some people, particularly Atheists, seem to view 'faith' as if it were a dirty epithet. They seem to inherently derive the notion that anyone that has faith is from some lesser form of humanity for the silly-hearted. But any reasonable person should know how thoroughly entwined we are to faith. Allow me to give you an example of what I mean:

    We would commonly say that we 'know' that humans have landed on the moon. We would say that its a fact. But what are we basing this fact on? We couldn't really say that it was a fact unless we were there. So what do we actually base most facts upon? We base on what we call, 'expert testimony.' We expect that people in a certain field have attained the knowledge in which to to teach us these facts. But there is a glaring contradiction in this as well. It takes faith to believe that the person giving the testimony actually knows anything that they are claiming. But we don't 'know' that we landed on the moon in the same sense that we 'know' whether or not our shoelaces are tied. In other words, we are appealing to authority to corroborate the truth about this or that without actually 'knowing,' (in the classical sense) that their testimony is indeed true.

    Now, don't misunderstand me by supposing that I don't believe in most expert witnesses or that we landed on the moon. I'm merely showing how faith and belief is in integral part of ourselves and that, at some point, its absolutely neccesary to believe some things on faith. Having said all of this, allow me to make some clarifications about faith. There is such a thing as blind faith. Blind faith is most often not a good thing. Somebody may say, "Jump off of this bridge. Its only 560 feet high. You'll survive, don't worry!" If we believed them on blind faith, we would be fools. However, there is another form of faith, one that I base all of my beliefs upon. That is, an informed faith. An informed faith is based on merit, not suppositions. There is logic behind the faith, not some blind allegiance towards nothing at all. I mean, during my days as a pagan, if someone simply randomly walked up to me and said, "Believe in Jesus because He's the Son of God and He'll save your soul," I would seriously consider the man or woman to be delusional to expect me to believe that on blind faith without some sort of corroboration. It took me many years of investigation and prayer for personal revelation to come to know by an informed faith that Jesus is indeed the Son of God and that He holds the key to my salvation. If I were to flippantly believe for no apparent reason, then my faith is unjustified. However, if I examine the evidence of this and that, I am able to make a decision on the grounds of faith that is informed.

    Today when someone asks, "Do you believe in God or Jesus?" the assumption is do I believe that they exist now. It is asked in the same way that people ask do you believe in fairies or the Easter Bunny. If these things existed outside of the imaginations and books that housed them, then we wouldn't need to believe, we would see them and know they were there. No one asks "Do you believe in cars?"

    I think that is one aspect of, "Do you believe in Jesus." But I think the underlying assumption within the begging question is, "Do you believe the account of Jesus? Do you believe that He was/is who He says He is?" That's what I've gathered over the years.

    When I searched for what "believing in" God means today I find the following:

    To believe in God means:
    to believe we are under Him, responsible to Him, accountable to Him.
    to accept that God exists.
    to realize that He has spoken.
    to see that life has a meaning.
    to believe that He is all-powerful and that we are His subjects.
    to experience real happiness and joy.
    to eliminate all forms of violence and exploitation from human society.

    Believing in God means:
    our lives and actions must reflect His existence.
    believing that life is basically good and worth living.

    To believe in Jesus means:
    you accept not only what Jesus taught but also what He claimed about Himself.
    to trust our life to him.
    walking in His footsteps and following His example.

    I would agree with this.

    The people of the Bible supposedly had physical evidence from which to make their decision.
    Today we are expected to trust without it.

    "After Jesus was raised from the dead, Thomas refused to believe the reports that He was alive. He said that unless he touched the nail marks in Jesus' hands and the wound in His side, he would not believe. When the Lord appeared to the disciples 8 days later, Jesus said to Thomas, 'Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" -John 20:29

    I guess a better question would have to be, how can you have travelled with Jesus for three years, seen the miracles attributed to Him, and still all of the Disciples on some level deserted Him for a lack of faith? How could Judas hand Him over to be crucified after knowing Him? Paul answers the question of faith by asking:

    "...even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees? But if we hope for that which we don't see, we wait for it with patience. In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered." -Romans 8:23-26

    Perhaps we can attribute it to another adage: "Satisfaction is the death of desire."

    Nobody can come to God without some basis of faith. Its just not possible. Its like me trying to explain to you what it feels like for me to love my children. Could you ever understand that? You might have an intellectual acquaintence with such a notion or you might be able to understand it by comparing your love for your children. But on some level, it is going to be required of you to believe that. Even your husbands love you, on some level, has to be taken on faith. You believe that your husband loves you because he says it and because he adorns you with gifts to manifest his apparent love for you. But on some level it is required of you to believe it. And without your belief that he is being honest, then it would just be unrequited love.


    “Always be ready to give a defense to
    everyone who asks you a reason for the
    hope that is in you.”
    –1st Peter 3:15
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 03-26-2005 10:36 AM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by purpledawn, posted 08-11-2006 1:39 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1630 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 74 of 78 (339213)
    08-11-2006 1:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
    08-10-2006 9:25 PM


    Faith and Belief
    quote:
    I think we can extend this meaning of belief and attribute it to faith.
    Faith and belief both deal with trust, IMO. But there has to be something to trust.

    quote:
    We would commonly say that we 'know' that humans have landed on the moon. We would say that its a fact. But what are we basing this fact on? We couldn't really say that it was a fact unless we were there.
    But I can sit at a table with Neil Armstrong and discuss his moon walking adventure. (Have actually) As I listen, I decide whether I feel he is telling the truth or not. Do I trust that he is speaking the truth?

    quote:
    However, if I examine the evidence of this and that, I am able to make a decision on the grounds of faith that is informed.
    So you trust the evidence that you have seen or heard?

    quote:
    I think that is one aspect of, "Do you believe in Jesus." But I think the underlying assumption within the begging question is, "Do you believe the account of Jesus? Do you believe that He was/is who He says He is?" That's what I've gathered over the years.
    This thread is so old I've probably lost whatever my original train of thought was, but believing the account or believing who he says he is really means believing those who wrote the accounts and believing what they said he supposedly said. Then there's believing what the clergy interpret those writings to say.

    So we have to trust unknown authors concerning the account of his life and what he supposedly said or the preacher's interpretation.

    quote:
    I would agree with this.
    But all those things are more like trusting a concept as opposed to the actual person or being.

    It is more like we are to believe in what God or Jesus has come to stand for and not necessarily the actual beings.

    quote:
    Nobody can come to God without some basis of faith.
    This sounds like believing is seeing, not seeing is believing.

    quote:
    You believe that your husband loves you because he says it and because he adorns you with gifts to manifest his apparent love for you. But on some level it is required of you to believe it. And without your belief that he is being honest, then it would just be unrequited love.
    But his actions have to reflect his words. Gifts don't show love. His actions are what I would trust, not just his words. There has to be something to base the trust on, which I think was my reasoning for starting this thread.


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-10-2006 9:25 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 2:37 PM purpledawn has responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5692
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 75 of 78 (339247)
    08-11-2006 2:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by purpledawn
    08-11-2006 1:39 PM


    Re: Faith and Belief
    Faith and belief both deal with trust, IMO. But there has to be something to trust.

    I would agree with that.

    But I can sit at a table with Neil Armstrong and discuss his moon walking adventure. (Have actually) As I listen, I decide whether I feel he is telling the truth or not. Do I trust that he is speaking the truth?

    I would agree this as well.

    So you trust the evidence that you have seen or heard?

    Both. Let me be as honest as I can, then you can determine whether or not you trust that i'm telling you the truth. To be a Christian doesn't come easy. Maybe for some it does. That comes down to blind faith or informed faith, as i mentioned earlier. I understand very well the atheist/agnostic mindset. I really, really do. In my opinion, its so much easier to be an agnostic and very difficult to believe in Jesus. However, once a thorough inspection is made dealing with historical, teleological, ontological, cosmological, rational, and philosophical arguments, I feel that this theistic beliefs stands out as clear as day. And when I look back its now difficult to comprehend just how misinformed I was. But that's my opinion. You certainly don't have to believe. But I hope that you can trust my testimony concerning this.

    I remember thinking in a similar vein as you are now maintaining. I remember thinking, "I need a primer in order for me to even entertain the notion of God. How could He, if He be real, condemn for a lack of knowledge." Years later I had come to realize that in a small way, I always knew, and always had sufficient evidence to question atheism. The reality was that I simply prefered a meaningless existence because if it wasn't, then I'd be accountable for my thoughts and actions.

    This thread is so old I've probably lost whatever my original train of thought was, but believing the account or believing who he says he is really means believing those who wrote the accounts and believing what they said he supposedly said. Then there's believing what the clergy interpret those writings to say.

    That's why its important in understanding how the Bible came about, the impossible odds for mere humans to 'invent' what is actually written. You see, most people claim to have read the Bible, but most really haven't. They've simply ruled it out as an a priori. And when you really learn prophecy placed side by side actual events in history, it becomes apparent that we have ample reason to at least consider for further inspection. But there is another factor; a very personal factor. There are those who met God in such a way that we know its not a mistake, or a hallucination, or that we're crazy.... But I can't prove that to you, nor do I have to. That experience is on an individual basis and it was desinged specifically for them. We don't meet Him in the same way.

    So we have to trust unknown authors concerning the account of his life and what he supposedly said or the preacher's interpretation.

    Why is this any different from history, or math, or science that you learned in school? There's absolutely no difference. Because you are trusting the teacher to know what they are talking about. You are trusting that the information that the professor is talking about is legitimate. You don't even question it. It was all swalloed on the basis of faith.

    It is more like we are to believe in what God or Jesus has come to stand for and not necessarily the actual beings.

    I would agree. The Being of God, if God exists, would concievably be inconvieable! Its like an ant trying to understand the depth of the human being. Can't be done. But that doesn't mean that the ant couldn't recognize that we are much higher than it. (I'm speaking metaphorically. I don't think ants have a clue as to who or what we are, much less think about it).

    This sounds like believing is seeing, not seeing is believing.

    Seeing isn't always believing. Case in point, some people see the intricacy of God in the cosmos while others see capricious disorder.

    But his actions have to reflect his words.

    No they don't. He could have ulterior motives for al you know. It takes a level of trust and faith for you to understand that love.

    Gifts don't show love. His actions are what I would trust, not just his words. There has to be something to base the trust on, which I think was my reasoning for starting this thread

    And I agree with that. That's why I argued against blind faith with an informed faith. You feel that you don't have sufficient reason to base a belief on God, but i do. So, there are only two options at work here. Either I'm totally incorrect in my assessment about God, or you have yet to find Him.


    “If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” –Steve Turner
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by purpledawn, posted 08-11-2006 1:39 PM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
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